Rekindling Next-Level Confidence
Welcome to a Rekindling, my love,
pairing and re-airing two of the most popular,
most impactful episodes of Mind Witchery.
Rekindling Next-Level Confidence features
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Mentioned:
Listener Dulce’s Instagram, @latinaimmigranttherapist
Gay Hendricks and his book The Big Leap.
Tarot phenom and podcaster Linsday Mack.
Transcript: Rekindling Next-Level Confidence
Natalie Miller: Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host Natalie Miller, and I’m so glad you’re here.
Natalie Miller: Hello, my love, welcome, and welcome to something a little different, something that we are calling Rekindling episodes. So I am taking a little break from creating new spells and new Mind Witchery episodes.
In the meantime, I didn't want to just go on hiatus. I didn't want to leave you with nothing to listen to. So this new thing, this Rekindling, is going to be a re-airing and a pairing up of some of the spells that you have loved the most.
I super hope that you will join me in trusting that these re-airings are arriving to your ears in just the right moment, and that even if you've listened once, that listening again, you are gonna get a message that is right on time for you. If you are new to Mind Witchery, if you're a new listener here, well, then you get a little tour of some of the most popular, most impactful episodes that we've released.
So thank you so much for being here. I hope you enjoy these pairings and I will be back all extra charged up and ready with more magic for you.
Natalie Miller: In today's rekindling, in today's pair of spells, we are going for Next-Level Confidence. So to rekindle next-level confidence is to use two spells, the Spell for Owning Your Next Level and the Spell for Surpassing Your Upper Limit. This pair of spells invites you to be more compassionate and more realistic about what it actually feels like to be reaching into next-level capacity, next-level success, next-level fulfillment.
Because. Spoiler alert. It actually doesn't always feel great. It's brand new. It's exciting, but it's not only exciting. It's a lot of things. It's a lot of things. And I think sometimes when it doesn't feel like, amazing and free and, I don't know what, like what a commercial for an arthritis drug looks like, like oh, now I'm completely free of all my limitations. It doesn't actually feel like that.
So, wherever it is in your life that you are breaking new ground, that you are expanding your capacity, that you are reaching for greater fulfillment. That might be in your personal life. That might be in your relational life. It might be in your work, in what you're bringing to the world, wherever it is, these are two spells that will help you to find more trust, more ease, and more openness as you begin to make yourself at home in a next level.
So the first spell here, the Spell for Owning Your Next Level is one of our very, very most popular ever. A friend of mine, Anwar called the spell iconic, and I was incredibly pleased by that. And, you know, right after it was released, I got lots and lots of emails. And one of those I want to share with you.
Another Natalie, a different Natalie wrote to me and said, “thank you for being on my walks and doing the laundry with me this year. I listened to this episode yesterday to help prepare for my biggest pod interview so far, which was sharing a more powerful message than ever before.”
She writes, “I literally cried when you were talking about, ‘if you don't feel ready…’ I honestly thought you were going to say you're probably not ready. And then the tears of relief came. Yes, I am in the next level now. PS, the interview was fire.”
Loved hearing from her. And when I reached out to this Natalie to say, “Hey, can I share the email that you wrote me on an upcoming podcast?” she wrote, “yes, of course.” And she said, “I will listen again, for sure. That feels like such a small move compared to the ones I've made since. So I know this spell has helped me more than I even knew at the time.” So that of course made me really happy.
I wanna share with you also some words from a dear listener Dulce. You'll hear her thoughts on a Spell for Owning Your Next Level in just a moment. But I wanna tell you that if you like the kinds of things that I share, you will also like the kinds of things that Dulce shares. You can find her on Instagram at Latina immigrant therapist, and I highly recommend you go give her a follow.
Okay. Here she is talking about the Spell for Owning Your Next Level.
Dulce: Hi, I am Dulce and I live in Stoughton, Massachusetts. This is not an easy question for me to answer. I feel that I love all of them. They come exactly at the right time. That being said one that I keep going back to, and that I've listened to a few times lately is a Spell for Owning your Next Level.
So on one hand, it made me realize that this is what I've been working for, right? I am seeing the results I wanted to see. It might not be the way I picture it in my head. I might not exactly be where I want to be. But I'm here. So that was kind of like, um, an external reminder of that.
But most importantly, I love, and I appreciate, and I value so much the fact that you mentioned well, it makes sense that you're tired. It makes sense that you need to take care of yourself physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. So that is something that, um, it's really easy for me to forget. And just having that external reminder is something that I think I need to listen to from someone else. And more than once
This spell has empowered me to really be honest with myself, and I would say enjoy what I have, where I am, what I have done, right? And to give myself credit without this constant, it's not enough, I need more, I know I'm not yet where I want to be. It has empowered me to pause and really take it all in putting that humility like that, oh no, it was just luck or no, it's not good enough or whatever it is, aside for a minute and just, with loving self-compassion, just saying, yes, I, I did this. I made this happen.
Mind Witchery Episode 40: A Spell for Owning Your Next Level
Natalie Miller: Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host, Natalie Miller, and I’m so glad you’re here.
Hi there. Welcome. I’m happy that you’re here. Ooh, I’m excited for today’s spell, a spell for Owning Your Next Level.
So many of my episodes are inspired by my work with my clients—of course with myself too. But this week, I had not one, not two, but three clients say something like this. Oh, I just feel like I’m on the verge of the next level or, oh, I just—I feel so close to this kind of next version of my life, this next step.
And the reason they felt close is that they could kind of see it, that is, each of these people was accessing new opportunities. They were getting offers. Each of these people had a sense that, wow, what I do is really valuable, actually. Each of them were starting to—starting to—ask for more in terms of asking for more compensation or asking for terms of employment that better suited them, right. So, each of these people is sort of seeing what’s possible, and even beginning to make some moves toward that possibility.
But none of them felt as if they were at the next level. And I want to spend a moment describing what this place is like because I have certainly spent a lot of time here, and I want to give a thorough description to see if perhaps you also find yourself here, right.
So, at this place where we feel like we are on the verge of the next level, we are especially self-doubtful. And this can manifest in different ways. Maybe we are second-guessing some of the things that we are creating, or we are all of a sudden doubting our ability to actually execute or deliver the things that we are creating.
Perhaps we find ourselves unsettled in the rhythms of our everyday lives, like, somehow, we need different things than we are getting, and so maybe a morning routine that worked before is either disrupted now or it’s not enough anymore. Maybe the space that we had carved out, or the rhythm that we had established for our work, all of a sudden, just doesn’t feel right. There’s often a disruption in just how we feel in our day-to-day life.
And also in this place, we are feeling more acutely aware of our needs. Some people are extra tired; just really, deeply tired. Some people, including me, find ourselves needing more support for our bodies and nervous systems. And since we are having increased self-doubt or second-guessing, many of us are also in need of more time and space and support in talking through the decisions that we’re making, or even talking through the actions we are not taking; we’re refusing to take. Again, this is a place where we are seeing possibilities and, yet, we sort of feel like, OK, well, in order to realize that, I’ve got to get to the next level.
All right. So, this is the place that I have found myself a lot over the last year, and this is the place that these various clients were finding themselves this week. So, here’s what I told them, and what I want to tell you.
All of this doubt, this neediness, this “I’m not quite sure who I am; I’m not quite sure how to conduct my everyday life,” these are not signs that you are on the verge of a next level. These are signs that you have arrived. Welcome. You’re here. You are at the next level.
And to explain this, I want to use a video game analogy. I don’t really play many video games anymore. But once upon a time, as a tween, I did, and I always think of the Nintendo game Super Mario Bros. when I am thinking about leveling up. So, let me explain.
Imagine this. Here I am, I’m playing Super Mario Bros., and let’s say I’m on like level 5. Over these many moons of playing, I’ve learned a lot about how the game works. I’ve learned that a magic mushroom will make me grow. I’ve learned that a sparkly, twinkly fireball will make me go fast. I don’t really remember how the game works but I think you’re with me.
I’ve figured out with my hands how the games work, and because whenever I am working on a particular level, I play it again and again and again, I have an idea of what to expect. I know, oh, yeah, OK, this is the hard part. But as long as I take a really—a long, running start, I can jump over that pit. Or, you know what, there’s like a secret stash of coins right up here in the sky, so I just got to remember to jump up there, and I’ll get some extra energy, whatever, right?
So, basically, because I’ve run the same level many times, I’ve developed understanding of it, comfort with it. I totally know what’s going on. So, let’s say I get to the end, I beat the monster, and now I’m on level 6. So, the world of level 6 opens up, and I’ve not seen this before.
Let’s just say in this world, everything is icy. OK? So, I haven’t yet seen this but now I have. OK. So, it’s possible for the world to be icy. And as I maneuver in the world, the way that I am used to being in the game is not well-adapted to this new level, to this new place, right?
When I run, I go faster because the surface is slick, and when I try to stop, as I’m accustomed to, I can’t stop. So, my regular way of moving in this world isn’t working. I kind of need to adapt, and figure out a new way of just being in my body here, right? You can already see the parallels but I hope you’ll stay with me in Super Mario Land for just a moment longer.
So, the other thing is I know some things that can happen in the game. I know about these magic mushrooms that I need. I know about these coins that I can collect. But in this new level, I’m not quite sure where they are. I know that I can get them, but I don’t know in this world where to find them, and I wonder is this world different in that way too. Like, I don’t feel quite myself in my body here, so is it—am I going to have access to the same resources?
OK. So, also, this is the next level, and so some of the challenges are much more difficult than the other challenges I’ve yet encountered, right? I’m in my world of ice, and maybe, all of a sudden, I see a chasm way bigger than any I’ve ever encountered before, and I haven’t yet learned that, OK, in this icy world, it is actually totally possible to jump that, or I haven’t yet learned, oh, there’s a rope I can grab. It’s above the chasm. I just have to jump high enough. Or maybe, ooh, there’s a secret block or even maybe a whole cave of riches at the bottom of the chasm. I just have to dive down in there.
And so, basically, because I am at the next level, I don’t really know yet how it works here. I don’t really know the landscape. So, it makes complete and total sense that here I am, I’m at the next level. I got here by slaying so many monsters, five levels of monsters, and yet I’m insecure. I’m uncertain. I’m tired. I’m, quote, unquote, I’m dying a lot, right?
When we first access the next level in the game, oh, my goodness, we try and fail. We take chances, and they really don’t work out. The only way to discover those ropes to swing off of, and those caves of treasures, is just to try. And a lot of times when we try, it doesn’t work.
So, returning to real life for a moment, I think when we imagine being at the next level, we imagine how it feels once we’ve mastered that next level, once we understand it, once we know it, once we are more comfortable navigating it, once we feel at home in it.
I think we imagine, oh, yeah, that’s the next level. The next level is where I don’t doubt myself. The next level is where I ask for more money with complete confidence and certainty. The next level is where my life looks exactly the way I want it to look.
But in order to achieve that comfort and confidence, a lot of trying and failing happens; a lot of feeling confused and uncomfortable and frustrated happens; a lot of discovering that strategies that have worked for us in the past don’t work at this next level; or discovering that what was enough rest or alone time or creative time, what was enough in the past is no longer enough. That happens too.
And all of this—discovering that what worked before doesn’t work; what was enough before isn’t enough—this contributes to our feelings of insecurity. It adds to the doubt and instability that we need to reckon with. And all of that takes an enormous amount of energy, so no wonder you’re so tired. No wonder your body is sore and asking for more support and love, for better food, for additional massages, right? When we are asking more of ourselves, of course we need more sustenance, rest, resources.
So, the spell for owning the next level is, number one, recognizing that even though you are scared and you are tired and you are riddled with self-doubt, you are here. You’re here. You’re at the next level because if you were at the end of the last one, you wouldn’t be feeling this way. You’ve actually ascended. You’ve moved on.
It’s not a sign that you don’t belong here. It’s a sign that you are here. So, that’s, number one, most important, is just acknowledging I’m here. I made it. Here I am. I’m at the next level.
Number two is allowing ourselves to try and fail. How else will we learn what this new level is like? How else will we learn what’s possible here? How else will we get comfortable here? We have to try. And when we try, we are going to fail. We are going to make mistakes. We’re going to test assumptions that are not correct.
All of that builds strength and awareness and facility. Like, it will become easier as we try. And, yet, to ask someone who’s already feeling a little insecure, a lot of self-doubt, to then be willing to try and fail, oh, my goodness, that is such a big ask. That’s such a big request.
So, a huge part of Owning Your Next Level, of claiming it, of declaring “I am here” involves investing in the support that you need to navigate it. Of course, you’re extra tired. This is a whole new world. You are tapping into and expressing parts of yourself that are tender that you’re just getting to know. You are discovering powers that are surprising and maybe even a little bit scary.
I’m sure this next part is true. You have been operating at next-level excellence. Like, if you really stand back and you look at it, you can see, huh, as I have played the game, as I have learned my lessons, I expect more of myself. I see more of what is possible for me, for what is possible for the world, and I’m moving toward that. And in so doing, my friend, you are expending more resources in body, in mind, in spirit, and soul.
And so, absolutely, accessing more support on all of those different levels is going to help you so much to do the necessary trying and failing, to do the necessary experimenting to work through the uncertainty and the frustration and the fear that you feel here.
So, after you claim this next level—“Hey, I’m here. This is it. I know I feel uncertain. I know I feel scared. I know I worry I’m not going to be able to make this work. But that’s all a sign that I’m actually already here”—the next thing is to relentlessly ask yourself, what do I want? What do I need? What do I want?
So, maybe I want to write this book. I want to start this podcast. I want to found this nonprofit. But that’s not going to fit into my level 5 life. [laugh] Right? That level 6 objective doesn’t fit into the life I’ve already created. I’ll need to make more space. I’ll need to get more support in order to do that.
What do I want? What do I need? I want to feel secure. I want to act in integrity. So, what do I need? Well, maybe I need coaching. Maybe I need a coach to help me to work through my doubts and fears. Maybe I need support for my body. As I’m asking my mind and my soul to expand, of course I’m going to feel it in my body. Maybe I’ll be more hungry or maybe I’ll be more sore and achy.
Maybe in order to really inhabit this next level, there are parts of myself that I need to accept, or there are traumas that I need to resolve. And, so, maybe I need somatic help or psychotherapeutic help. Maybe I’m asking myself to step into a next level of entrepreneurship, and in so doing, maybe I need help around my systems or around my marketing. I’ll need support here.
I really want to highlight the need for support because when we’re in a place where we’re not so sure, and we’re self-doubting, that is a place where it can be really challenging to say, yes, I am investing in myself, in my vision and dream, in my body. The beginning of the next level finds you [laugh] wondering where the hell you are, and what the hell you’re doing; feeling unsettled in your everyday life, full of dreams and visions but also full of fears and doubts. And that is exactly the place where you can benefit from more help, more support. And it is maybe the hardest place to actually allow yourself to get it.
So, I love alternating these questions. What do I want? What do I need? What do I want? What do I need? What do I want? I want a coaching practice. What do I need? Coaching for my own self. What do I want? I want to write a book. What do I need? I need dedicated space and time to do that.
In my experience, at the beginning of a next level, we need so much more than we want to need. [laugh] We need so much more than we are comfortable needing. Our dreams, our aspirations, our goals, our vision has expanded and grown. But our understanding of what we will need—the support and the sustenance we will need to be able to realize that—has not grown, right? And that is something that we figure out as we navigate this next level. We learn how much we need to be able to do the things we want to do.
So, the last thing I want to say is that next levels are available in all kinds of places, right? You can be entering a next level in your relationships or your dating. You could be entering a next level in your parenting. You could be entering a next level in your work. I talked a lot about that today. You could be entering a next level in your bodily health, in how you care for it and how you manifest in your body.
If you are drawn to me [laugh], I think you’re a person who likes to level up, and so you might find yourself in a next level in more than one of those places at a time. Wherever you find yourself, I hope you will remember the Spell for Owning Your Next Level.
Number one, I’m here. This doubt, this insecurity, this questioning of my worthiness, this tiredness, this confusion, this frustration that I’m feeling, all of those are signals that I have arrived. I thought I was going to look like Beyoncé striding out onto the stage at the next level. I did not realize that at the beginning, I’m just Mario sliding around, falling into pits. Good to know.
Number two, what do I want? What do I want for myself? What do I want for my family? What do I want for the world? Why am I here? What do I want? And, everyone, I find it helpful to think about what I want for the world. That sometimes helps me to tap into the collective in a way that is really helpful in encouraging me, like giving me courage to try and fail, to remember, oh, it’s not—it’s for me but it’s for all of us, right?
What do I want? And then what do I need? What do I need? What’s the support? What’s the sustenance? What’s the space that I need to do all of the trying and failing, the experimenting, the delightful discovering, and the frustrating wheel-spinning that is necessary to get so very confident and courageous and comfortable at this level that I reach and defeat the monster at the end, so I can do it all over again?
I’m glad you’re in this with me, my friend. Thank you so much for listening. Bye for now.
Natalie Miller: Sometimes at the next level, we feel a bit fish out of water. And sometimes at the next level, we feel so good, so powerful, so happy that it freaks us out. That is where I was last summer. Like a year ago at this time I was on a little trip with my girls and I had really come through such a challenging, scary, difficult time in my life, and was in a new place that just felt abundant and hopeful and full of possibility. And I had this moment that was like, ah, it's not safe.
And so on the fly, like literally on a country road, I talked about it. And that is this next spell, the Spell for Surpassing Your Upper Limit. It's a beautiful compliment to the Spell for Owning Your Next Level.
And again, it helps you to see those little freak-out moments, those moments of fear or doubt. Not as a warning sign that you're going the wrong direction or you're not gonna be okay, but rather as proof, as assurance that yes, indeed, you have arrived. So enjoy, and have fun listening for the turn signal of my car, cause that happens in this episode. All right, off you go.
Mind Witchery Episode 23: A Spell for Surpassing Your Upper Limit
Natalie Miller: Hello, beauty. I am coming to you from my dream life [laughs], but really, I am in the mountains. I’m here for a few days. I’m here with my daughters and a couple of their friends, and while the teenagers sleep in in the morning, I do a little bit of coaching and a little bit of work. And then in the afternoon, we’re going to lakes and on hikes and we are enjoying ourselves.
The house we’re staying in is lovely. It’s a gorgeous Airbnb—big windows in the quiet, quiet country. I am having such a lovely time, and actually right now, I’m on my way to see a good friend who happens to also be here. The teenagers are at the house, theoretically cleaning up and cooking dinner, and I am on my way to see my friend and hang out with my friend at her little lake house.
So, I felt compelled to share a spell with you, because when we start to access some of this dream life, when we move into the new house, get the new relationship, figure out the, the business move, or secure the job or promotion, when things start to get really good, often times what happens—and this is like so, so common—often times what happens is some little, some little scared part of ourselves will start to get a little bit wide-eyed and shifty. And we’ll start to think, “Shit, this isn’t good. This isn’t good. It’s getting too good. It’s getting too—something’s about to happen. Something’s—like, another shoe is about to drop, or there’s something I haven’t considered. Like, it can’t be this good.”
And there’s actually an amazing book about this phenomenon. It is by this writer, Gay Hendricks. Um, he’s a coach, I guess. He does some relationship coaching with his wife, too. But he wrote a book called The Big Leap, and I bet that you’ve heard of it, or read it, or read it multiple times. I certainly—I’ve both read it and taught it several times. And Gay Hendricks talks about this as being “upper-limiting.” He says, you know: We have this, this kind of happiness thermostat, this fulfillment thermostat, and it’s set to, “Okay, this much happiness.” And when our happiness or fulfillment surpasses that, what we’re used to—what we’re used to, and that might be income, that might be intimacy, that might be exposure, that might be enjoyment; there’s so many different things it could be, but when we come over that thermostat, it’s like it kicks on. The upper-limiting impulse kicks in, kicks on. And all of a sudden now, we are worrying, or maybe we’re squabbling. We’re squabbling with our partner. We’re all of a sudden very worried, and we’re looking over our shoulder, and we’re starting to doubt ourselves. Sometimes, Gay Hendricks writes, we get sick. We get ill. And I think that, um, as I’m talking about this, I’m betting that you know what I’m talking about. You know this upper-limiting thing.
So, here’s the spell for evolving beyond your upper limit. Or, maybe it should be a spell for raising your upper limit. Okay. Here’s a spell for raising your upper limit. “It is safe for me to get my hopes up. It’s safe to get my hopes up.” I got this spell in part from Lindsey Mack, who is a tarot teacher, and her podcast is on hiatus now, but she said this in, oh my gosh, February maybe or March of 2021 in one of her episodes. And I was listening in the car, and I practically had to pull over to the side of the road. I was so bowled over by that statement: “It’s safe to get your hopes up.”
So, I’m not saying it’s not scary, and I’m certainly not saying you won’t be disappointed. Please know: here on planet Earth, there’s always disappointment. Things are probably not gonna go exactly the way you think. And yet, at the same time, it is safe to get your hopes up, because you can grow through whatever disappointment you will face. You will grow through it. You will survive. You will learn. You will evolve. When we won’t get our hopes up, when we keep our hopes low, and we keep ourselves small, contained, reasonable, realistic, we don’t get to tap into some of what is boldest and most beautiful in the human spirit.
It’s like we, we shut it down. And I believe that ultimately that is what’s not safe, because that is what gets us into abusive relationships. That is what gets us staying in jobs that are making us sick. That is what enables or allows for dangerous behaviors, addictions. “I won’t get my hopes up, so I will drink a bottle of wine every night. I won’t get my hopes up, so I will be a shopaholic.”
It is really scary to go for what you want, especially if you are a woman, if you are a person of color, if you are disabled, if you are a person who isn’t heteronormative or heterosexual. Okay? So, yeah, desire—all of these groups of people have been told all of your desires are dangerous. And even if we intellectually disbelieve that, we’re still swimming in a culture that is repeating that all the time. But when we say, “It is safe to get our hopes up,” we can lift our hopes, we can—we can center and follow our desires. We can figure it out. Will it be easy? Nope, it is not gonna be easy. I’m speaking from experience. It will not be easy, but you will be free! You will be free to be yourself. It is safe to get my hopes up. It is safe to want more, to want better. It is safe to try something new.
I’ll take a moment now to get my hopes up that you’re going to listen to this and allow your hopes to rise, too. Because we do have so much collective work to do. Because we do have this world to evolve and to make better. Because we do have these beautiful lives, and listen! There are lots of problems, but I hope and believe we’re brilliant. We are ingenious. We are finding new ways of being, ways of being that are more human honoring all the time. We are.
Look at Simone Biles. She just did it. Look at Naomi Osaka. She just did it. They said, “Hold on. This isn’t how it has to be. It can be different. It can be better. I can be an extraordinary athlete, and I don’t have to hurt myself to do that.” Everybody, that is so beautifully evolutionary, and I imagine it is an act of faith on their parts. “The sponsors won’t abandon us. The fans won’t abandon us. I hope that when I take a stand for myself, for my mental health, for my whole body wellness, my brain, my limbs, my muscles—when I take a stand for myself, I hope we can make room for that.”
And I don’t—I’m not saying that’s conscious on their parts, but I’m saying it’s a huge, hopeful move. It is, to kind of move back for a moment to the spell for vanquishing martyrdom, it is a huge fucking rejection of “I have to,” and a complete embrace of “I choose to” or “I choose not to.”
Okay, so, a spell for raising our upper limit. And I’m not gonna say eliminating it, because listen, one step at a time. Would I love limitlessness? Probably, maybe. I don’t know, but I don’t find it to be helpful to think about it in that way. So, a spell for raising your upper limit; a spell for surpassing your upper limit; a spell for—maybe that’s the one. Maybe I like that one. Do you like how I’m figuring this out as I’m talking? Because what is it that I want to do with this upper limit? I don’t want to be violent with it. I don’t want to bust through it. I just want to move beyond it. I want to press it a little further.
So, maybe “surpass.” A spell for surpassing your upper limit. “It is safe to get my hopes up. And I will grow through my disappointments. They will help me evolve.” Will it be hard? Yes, it will be hard. Will it be harder than staying small? My friend, that is for you to decide, but in my own experience, no. Staying small, hoping less, being hope-less: that’s so much harder.
All right, I send you love. I send you a deep conviction: It is safe to get our hopes up. And I’m excited to connect with you again soon.
Bye, for now.
[Outro music]
Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind Witchery. To catch all the magic I’m offering, please subscribe to the show, or if you want a little bit of weekly witchiness in your inbox, sign up for my Sunday Letter at mindwitchery.com. If today’s episode made you think of a friend or loved one, your sister, your neighbor, please tell them about it. We need more magic-makers in this troubled world.
Like all good things, this podcast is co-created by stellar people. Our music is by fabulous DJ, artist, and producer, Shammy Dee. Our gorgeous art is by the sorcerers at New Moon Creative. Mind Witchery is produced in conjunction with Particulate Media, K.O. Myers, executive producer. And I am Natalie Miller. Till next time.
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