Conjuring Freedom from Diet Culture Feat. Shanique Allen
I have such a TREAT for you this week, my love.
I’m so excited to introduce you to an evolutionary being
who’s trying to make the world a better place for all of us in our sweet human bodies.
Shanique Allen is a nutritional strategist and mindset coach.
She helps people figure out how to filter out the noise of diet culture
and nourish themselves in ways that suit their real lives.
We talk about how to start freeing ourselves from the structures that keep us
uncomfortable with our bodies,
stressed about food,
and chasing image goals that have nothing to do with health.
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Mentioned:
Learn more about Shanique Allen and her work on her website at shaniqueallen.com
and follow her on Instagram @shaniqueallen_.
Health At Every Size® (HAES®) principles and framework.
10 Principles of Intuitive Eating.
Make Magic:
The best thing you can do is to be kind to yourself.
We’re all swimming in this pervasive, toxic culture.
As we start to understand its influence on us,
it’s natural to feel shame when we - inevitably - discover parts of that culture we’ve been perpetuating.
Please, please, please treat yourself with compassion, and don’t beat yourself up.
Transcript: Conjuring Freedom from Diet Culture Feat. Shanique Allen
Natalie Miller: Who profits when we control our bodies? I mean, I can think of a million people, right off the bat. But what do you think ? Who profits?
Shanique Allen: Well, for one, these diet companies profit.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: Men profit, people who sell clothes profit, and people who benefit from us not trusting our bodies.
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: And that’s a wide field.
Natalie Miller: Yeah, yeah.
Shanique Allen: That’s a big field of people.
Natalie Miller: And, I mean, I think, right, like, exploitative capitalism—
Shanique Allen: Oof.
Natalie Miller: —profits, right?
Shanique Allen: In a nutshell, that’s what that does.
Natalie Miller: It’s like you know who we need to control their bodies? People doing shift work. [laugh] We need you to control your body. We need you to not need to eat, except on your tiny, little break that maybe you’ll get.
Natalie Miller: Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host, Natalie Miller, and I’m so glad you’re here.
Natalie Miller: Hello, my friend. Welcome to Mind Witchery. Oh, can you hear the excitement in my voice? I have such a treat for you today. You get to listen in on a conversation between me and a fellow evolutionary out here trying to make the world a better place for all of us in our sweet human bodies on this tough, tough planet these days. So, I am here with Shanique Allen, and Shanique is an internet friend. Shanique, we met on the internet, you and I.
Shanique Allen: We did. [laugh]
Natalie Miller: So, Shanique, please, tell the lovely listener who you are, what you’re about.
Shanique Allen: Hi, everyone, I am Shanique Allen, and I go by the same name on Instagram where everybody finds me. And I am a nutritional strategist and mindset coach. Now [laugh], what that really means is I help people figure out how to nourish themselves in the simplest of ways possible that suits your life without the noise of diet culture and toxic diet behaviors and restrictions in mind. But, really, what I’m about is changing everybody’s mind about what it means to pursue and live your healthiest best. Former athlete, former personal trainer who went cold turkey in giving all of that up to pursue health very differently.
Natalie Miller: Yes. And, so, today, Shanique and I are going to talk about diet culture. We’re going to talk about redefining health. Shanique has a really interesting redefinition of what health is. We’re going to talk about how to approach food, and maybe movement also, in a way that is truly healthy [laugh], like top to bottom, for your body, for your mind, for your soul, for all of it, because, as we all know, our culture is maybe not the best at promoting health.
So, that said, Shanique, you had this social media post the other day that I was just—it got me raising my fist in solidarity. You wrote this. You wrote, “Just because you aren’t on a diet doesn’t mean you aren’t deep in diet culture. #dietculture is ingrained.”
So, what is that? Like, let’s just kind of suss that out because I think, you know, we know we live in a diet culture. I don’t think that surprises any listener in this podcast. But what does that mean for us that we are all living in a diet culture?
Shanique Allen: In general, really, when we talk about diet culture, we’re looking at perspectives that puts thin, able-bodied as worthy, as healthy, and diets are generally geared towards achieving that standard.
Natalie Miller: Let’s pause right there because I think that is such a good first point, right? It’s this equation of thinness with like virtue.
Shanique Allen: Yeah, thinness with virtue; thinness with morality; thinness with worth.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. Even before we get to like health, we’re even just thinking about like, oh, the thin body is Good, capital G, Good.
Shanique Allen: Mm-hmm.
Natalie Miller: Yeah, totally. OK. So, we have that, and then what else? What else do we have?
Shanique Allen: So, we have the fact that this culture is ingrained not just from the health perspective, the eating perspective, the exercise perspective, but it’s ingrained in social structures that exist. It’s ingrained in our environments and our families. So, if we look into the media, if we look into the conversations you have with your aunties and your moms and your cousins and sisters, it’s ingrained in that.
If you look at conversations around, you know, female bodies and what men desire, what’s desirable and what’s not, what’s beautiful and what’s not, all those things point towards this thin ideal, and this upholding of this thin ideal to be the perfect ideal. So, the thin ideal is one, and then the added layer to that [laugh], and a very uncomfortable one for a lot of us, is the cisgender, white, able-bodied body that fits into that thin ideal. So, anything outside of that—and we’re talking not just skin color; we’re talking cultures; we’re talking traditions—anything that’s outside of that is not part of it.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. And I have read about how we can watch that culture spread as globalization spreads, right?
Shanique Allen: Mm-hmm.
Natalie Miller: As televisions come to different places, all of a sudden, incidences of disordered eating go up because we start to only see a certain type of body, and we don’t see other types of body. So, Shanique, like, this is not news to us. We know this, as women of a certain age. We know this. But what are some of the insidious ways that it affects us? Because I think it does.
Like, one thing actually might be around, OK, well, I don’t want to be thin but I do want to eat well. Maybe I won’t be weighing myself but I will be obsessed with balancing my plate perfectly. I will be obsessed with only eating organic food. I will be obsessed with, you know, always cooking, and never ordering takeout, and those kinds of things. What do you think? Do you think that could be seen as an aspect of this culture too?
Shanique Allen: Yes, definitely. And then if you look at something as wanting to be “in shape”—and I’m saying “in shape” in quotes—or I don’t—I want—I don’t need to be fit, I just need to look fit, or someone wants to have—I don’t want to be too bulky. I want to be toned. I want to have, you know, a snatched waist or, you know, in those kinds of ways, and if you look at things like I’m watching my waist or I’m watching my weight without necessarily being on a diet.
So, let’s look at something like shapewear. Shapewear is one classic example. Bodies come in different sizes and shapes. Bodies will have folds and rolls but because, you know, people think I can’t have folds or rolls wearing this dress or, you know, I have a muffin top, so it’s problematic. So, they need to, you know, shape it or, you know, create the illusion of a certain type of shape.
I mean, anything that shows up with—look at something as simple as a mom, for instance, telling her child, “You’re not going to get X if you don’t eat your vegetables,” or using ice cream as a reward type of thing. All of those things are pretty much centered around this idea that food is to be put on a pedestal. We’ll use it as a dangling carrot. It’s either the thing that you’re going to be rewarded with, or as a thing that you’re going to be punished for.
So, you see it in simple examples like that, a mom, you know, using food as something to rein her child in, or berate a child, or even somebody commenting on your plate, for instance and it’s, “Oh, I could never eat that and maintain my weight,” or, “I wish I could eat like you,” for instance, “and not put on a pound,” that type of thing. So, it shows up in unconscious ways that we’re not even aware of.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. I think the casual talk about restricting your eating, and the casual talk about blame and shame around food, or judgment around food, that’s definitely a thing. It’s actually, when I lead retreats with women, it’s a group agreement that I ask everyone to make to not talk about food in that way. Appreciate the food, enjoy the food, but nothing of like, “Oh, my gosh, I can’t help but have a second plate.” Just have the second plate. There’s no need to, like, talk about it, you know.
And I think rebuilding culture involves making some agreements like that [laugh] with the people in our lives. Like, hey, when we go out for brunch, we’re not going to make a big deal out of ordering dessert. We’re not going to talk about the food in that kind of way, yeah.
It does strike me, Shanique, that one thing that we can do right now though, because if you are in the audience, and you’re like, “Damn, I have some SPANX,” or you’re in the audience, and you’re thinking, “Oh, I totally ask my kids to eat their broccoli before they get a dessert,” the last thing I know I and Shanique want to do is for you to feel bad or wrong about that. Like, that—this is the culture we are all swimming through right now. And, so, like, I own some shapewear. I totally do.
Shanique Allen: Likewise.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. So, it’s not to make this bad or wrong. It’s just to say, wow, this really does—it creeps into our closets [laugh], and it creeps into our meal and then into our tables, our kitchen table conversations, yeah.
Shanique Allen: I will also say that part of being an evolutionary—since that’s what you called me—is inviting every one of us, every time we’re broaching this topic is to approach it with compassion because tendency—you’ll find a tendency to berate and beat yourself up for all the things that you might be perpetuating on [laugh], you know, without even realizing that’s what you’re doing.
So, any time you feel discomfort with a particular topic, this one in particular, if there are any listeners who feel like, “Oh, this might apply to me, or I’m perpetuating this,” the best thing or one thing you can do is, one, breathe, and, two, ask yourself, “Where am I going to show myself a little kindness and compassion?” The tendency is for us to feel shame, and that’s a human response, right, again bred by the environment that we live in, that that’s going to be our response.
So, approaching it or thinking about with compassion, and that’s something that I speak to and invite everyone to do, whether I’m speaking on my podcast or I’m working with a client, is every single thing that we’re going to do and talk about, one, recognize there’s no judgment here. We’re all in this, trying to figure life out. And, two, the best thing you can to is to be kind to yourself as you figure things out, because beating yourself up makes zero sense.
And that brings me to this piece of diet culture too, and why I say it’s ingrained, is that element of beating yourself up is part of it, like no pain, no gain. You know, that is very much ingrained. You need to suffer to make progress, or you need to suffer to achieve a goal. You need to suffer to be healthy, or you can’t make a turnaround.
There’s nothing to say that you won’t deal with some kind of discomfort, and it might be like suffering, but it is not a requirement for change to happen. It is not absolutely necessary, especially if it’s a case where it’s, one, self-inflicted and, two, you don’t want to do it. Like, there is this element that they feel like they have to do something because somebody else says or some rule says that if you want to be healthy, you must do this. Really?
Why is that the only route? Why is there not another solution? Why is there not an alternative? And I think the feeling of no alternatives or this one way is what gets us on that train of always beating ourselves up, always judging ourselves, always criticizing ourselves for not looking the way that it’s “supposed” to look—and I say “suppose” in quotations here. So, that’s something I always invite people to do.
Natalie Miller: I love that. I think, yes, the invitation toward compassion, and also what I’m hearing there, Shanique, is toward individualization. It’s like [laugh], actually, the same foods don’t work for all of us. The same kinds of exercise don’t work for all of us. We’re all dealing with different genes. We’re all dealing with different conditions, both like conditions in the body, conditions in the environment. Like, we are not all the same.
Shanique Allen: No.
Natalie Miller: So, understanding that and honoring that, and sort of seeing, OK, so maybe I’ve released myself, at least I want to release myself, from the ideal of thinness. But let me not replace it with another ideal. Let me not replace it with, well, now, I’m going to be a Whole30, South Beach Diet. Now, I’m Paleo, you know, all of these other kind of models that are really restrictive, or can be really restrictive, in a way.
Shanique Allen: And you see why it’s seductive, those restrictions, because you’re structured to them, or seeing it appear as your structure, and people want—always want answers to things. I am no exception, right? So, one of the things you were talking about, Natalie, that you’ve seriously impacted me with is in our initial introduction, the asking the question you always ask on those calls was, “What do you want?” And people often ask you for a question, expecting an answer. I’m like, OK, yes, I get an answer so I can run with it.
It’s the same thing here with diet culture, and just or the way we operate around health, and we want answers to whatever is plaguing us. So, we want somebody to tell us, “Here’s a structure. Follow these rules, and you’ll hit it.” But that’s what’s missing also because guess what? That structure, when applied to my life and when applied to your life, reveals two different things. One, two, we can’t all fit the same way with that structure.
Natalie Miller: Right.
Shanique Allen: A friend of mine, she always says, “Life gets life-y.” And when that structure exists, and you have to follow it, and you’re held by the reins of that, “I need to follow it this way,” what happens when it doesn’t—when you can’t follow it that way? Then what? You fall apart? You’re a failure? You don’t want it bad enough?
All these things we’re told, and it screws us up. We’re unable to think for ourselves. We’re unable to solve or find solutions on our own. And it’s not that I’m not dismissing the importance and impact of community and health and asking for help. What I am advocating for is the reclaiming of self-trust, and it’s something that we’ve lost entirely.
Natalie Miller: Yes, because, you know, the other thing I was thinking when you were saying, you know, all of these different kind of programs and protocols, they offer a structure, I think they also offer a promise of control. And so many of us feel “out of control.” I’m doing quotation marks with my hands. We feel out of control when it comes to food.
Shanique Allen: That’s diet culture right there.
Natalie Miller: That’s diet culture, right, because diet culture is telling us we’re out of control, right?
Shanique Allen: It’s ironic, right?
Natalie Miller: Well, I mean, don’t think that diet culture is any different from the Supreme Court deciding that, you know, women can’t make any decisions about their bodies. This is tale as old as time, Eve and that, you know, damn apple. Like [laugh], why are women always eating shit they shouldn’t be eating? It’s ruining everything.
This is a narrative that’s very, very old for us, and so I think, yeah, we want a sense of control. It’s like, OK, tell me, what are the macros to follow? Tell me, what are the protein grams to count? What are the foods I can eat? What are the foods I can’t eat? And, of course, like you said, life gets life-y and, in the end, we’re animals. We’re human animals, right?
Shanique Allen: Which means that you can’t control—there are things you can’t control about the body, which essentially is what diet culture wants you to do with food, using food as a tool or using food as something to control the body, because there’s this perception that we’ve been led to believe for all these years, for as long as you know yourself, that if you just eat “right”—and I use “right” in quotes here—if you just eat right and exercise right.
But there are so many things that impact your body, and you don’t have as much control as you think over your body, and that’s something that we’ve all bought it, like, we have that control. And, yes, you have some control, to an extent. You have control what you point in your mouth, but you don’t have control over your genes. You don’t have control over your hormones.
You don’t have control over your environment that impacts all of those things. You don’t have control over all the stress that you might face, especially if you’re living in marginalized communities with no access to certain things, or you’re not facing the same opportunities as other communities. You don’t have control over these things. You don’t have control over the oppression that exists that you’re worried about.
I saw a story the other day about moms struggling or parents struggling to find formula for their kids and babies, and this is a form of stress. And I’m like, you’re telling me that the message to moms now is to snap back when they have an issue of finding formula for their kids, and that’s something that they have con…they have control over their body now when something like that exists? So, we’ve been fed that you have control. All you have to do is eat the right foods in the right amounts, and exercise the right way, and you will have the body.
Natalie Miller: Right. All you have to do is be good [laugh], right? That’s really what it boils down to. All you have to do is be good. So, this knocked me out, Shanique, when I learned that. And I learned this through the Health at Every Size folks who are amazing, the Intuitive Eating people who are amazing. I really—I resonate deeply with those approaches. Do you as well?
Shanique Allen: Mm-hmm.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. So, we’ll put links to those in the Show Notes too. But it knocked me out to discover that when we have the perception of restriction around food, our bodies produce more of the hormone that makes us feel hungry, and less of the hormone that lets us feel satiated. It’s like you don’t even actually have to be restricting your calories.
Even if you are just telling yourself you should be, your body will be like, “Wait a minute. Is there a danger of not enough food? Because I’mma need you to eat, so I’m going to go ahead and produce the chemical that gets you eating, and I’m going to delay the chemical that makes you feel full.” Shanique, I was like, yeah, that’s what it feels like. I’m so interested what you have to say about this too.
Shanique Allen: Yeah. When people say a body is smart, they always use it as a means to an end to promote their particular restrictive message, right? But the reality is your body is smart, and it is going to do what it needs to do to survive. And restriction is not just with the food that you put in, it starts before the food even gets anywhere near you, like you said, just the thought process, because thinking has a profound effect on your biology, right? That’s how stress works, right?
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: The same way stress works on your brain and your body, it’s the same way your thought patterns around food, and particularly around restriction, impacts your body as well. So, if you were to think of it intuitively, that’s to be expected because your body is smart.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. But, of course, what happens is, here I am. I’m trying to be, quote, unquote, “good.”
Shanique Allen: Good, mm-hmm.
Natalie Miller: I’m trying to not eat at bedtime. I’m trying to have my salads, right, and I have this restrictive mentality, and I’m—I go to bed, and I’m hungry. I’m hungry, and so what do I do? Maybe I get up and I have a piece of toast. Maybe I get up and I have—and then what do I do?
Shanique Allen: Feel guilty about it.
Natalie Miller: Exactly, right. This is not me, by the way, everybody. Don’t worry. Like, [laugh] I’m still working through my own kind of disordered eating history. But, like, I know enough not to be here anymore. But what I’m saying is what generally happens is, yeah, you feel terrible. You feel bad about yourself. You feel like there’s something wrong with you.
Shanique Allen: Right. So, that’s the thing. Your inability to stay disciplined, that fault falls back on you when it is the restrictive practices that diet culture tends to push.
Natalie Miller: Exactly.
Shanique Allen: But, no, you are the problem. You are supposed to eat on time. You’re supposed to only eat this amount of food, and any cue about hunger that you get, oh, you’re supposed to ignore that, or you’re supposed to distract that. And that’s what messes us up because if your body’s like as far gone that it goes off all the time, and you’re like la-la-la, your hands over your ears, la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la, and you keep doing that, at some point, those muffs get so thick that that sound is muted, so you’re unable to even detect it.
Natalie Miller: Yes.
Shanique Allen: So, this constant diverting hunger or your hunger is not real, that’s the thing that diet culture teaches you or, let me just say, restrictive methods or restrictive eating behaviors teach you. Your hunger isn’t real. You cannot trust your hunger because if you follow your hunger, it means you’re greedy. You’re going to overeat. When your hunger is a natural physiological response, how does that make sense?
Natalie Miller: It’s incredible, right? I had a wonderful day with a friend and colleague, Lexi Merritt the other day.
Shanique Allen: I saw that. [laugh]
Natalie Miller: Yeah. [laugh] She said one of the questions she asks herself, and it’s so simple, I love this, is she says, “Wait a minute. Who profits from this?” So, let’s ask ourselves [laugh], right? Wait a minute. This doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t make sense to restrict food. It doesn’t make sense to disconnect people from bodies or try to make people control bodies, right?
Like, what I’m hearing you argue for, Shanique, is like let’s not control our bodies. Let’s trust our bodies. Let’s not have discipline. Let’s have compassion. But who profits when we control our bodies? I mean, I can think of a million people, right off the bat. But what do you think? Who profits?
Shanique Allen: Well, for one, these diet companies profit.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: Men profit, people who sell clothes profit, and people who benefit from us not trusting our bodies.
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: And that’s a wide field.
Natalie Miller: Yeah, yeah.
Shanique Allen: That’s a big field of people.
Natalie Miller: And, I mean, I think, right, like, exploitative capitalism—
Shanique Allen: Oof
Natalie Miller: —profits, right?
Shanique Allen: In a nutshell, that’s what that does.
Natalie Miller: It’s like you know who we need to control their bodies? People doing shift work. [laugh] We need you to control your body. We need you to not need to eat, except on your tiny, little break that maybe you’ll get.
Shanique Allen: Oh, wow.
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: It does kind of come down to that. Who profits when women hate their bodies? Everyone who wants to control women’s bodies profits, right, because it’s harder to stand up for something you hate.
Shanique Allen: Oh, goodness, it is. It’s mind-blowing—
Natalie Miller: It is mind-blowing.
Shanique Allen: —when you think about all the facets of it.
Natalie Miller: So, OK, so we’re here for something different though, right? I love to dive in and to get clearer on what diet culture is, and also you’re here, Shanique, standing for something different, and creating something different—and me too. I’m here for this too. So, we’ve already kind of said we want to go for trust and compassion.
We want to recognize and honor the diversity of bodies, like, not every body is the same. We’re different shapes and sizes. We have different needs. We have different sensitivities, like, all of those kinds of pieces.
You also have this super interesting redefinition of what health is. Could you talk about that a little bit? Because I think when we think of health, like you said earlier, we conflate it with virtuousness and goodness and thinness and control and discipline, and all of those things. How are you redefining health?
Shanique Allen: Well, I’m going to use a word. I use the word “nourishment” to define health because it’s not just about my physical health. It’s about mental health, my emotional well-being, the creativity and spirituality, feeding those things as well. So, for me, health is a broad spectrum of things, and in working with anyone or speaking with anyone, you always want to honor that.
And I invite people, “How can you honor all aspects of your health, not just the physical piece?” Because the physical piece, while it’s important, it’s often the focus when people think of health. And there are so, really, a whole bunch of things that falls under health.
Natalie Miller: It’s just a small piece, yeah.
Shanique Allen: There’s so many other things. There is family. There are relationships. There is your spirituality. There is your job, your career, your finances, your home environment, your social responsibilities. All of those things make up your health.
So, for me, health is nourishment, and using the things—tools, resources, what you have access to—to nourish not just your body but everything that you need nourishment, you need to be nourishing. That’s going to add to your sense of well-being, your sense of safety. So, for me, health is not just this tiny speck.
Even though I coach nutrition, a lot of what I invite clients to do is big picture. Let’s go outside of the food that you eat. What else exists, and how can we channel the nourishment that we take in in whatever form to make sure that we are thriving the best ways that we can, thriving in ways that we want to thrive, and how that’s also going to impact the communities we live in, the homes we live in.
So, when you think about health, I’m not just talking about my own individual health. It’s also health of the collective. And while there’s some individualism to it, it is still part of a collective, and you still—I have to—you have to—there’s no two ways about it. You have to consider that.
Natalie Miller: I’ve seen this for myself, and I’ve seen this for so many clients, people who are starving for pleasure, starving for love [laugh], starving for connection and for meaning, for like meaningful connection, starving for rest—
Shanique Allen: That’s a big one.
Natalie Miller: Yeah, I think those are all big ones, right? Starving for peace of mind, like, constantly in a state of judgment and worry, and judgment and worry, right? And, so, you know, is it any surprise that we self-soothe with television—P.S. I love television, as you all know—with food? P.S. I love food, as you all know, right?
Again, no blame. But those are easily accessible [laugh] when some of that other nourishment, it requires some bigger shifts, right? What do you think we’re shifting away from when we’re shifting toward nourishment? Like, where are we—why don’t we have more nourishment in that broader sense, culturally?
Shanique Allen: I think part of that comes from accepting that there is only one form of or one way to do certain things, and if it’s not done this way, that’s where the judgment comes in. That’s where you’re measuring yourself against, you know, other people. So, people measure themselves in terms of who is earning this, who’s earning six figures and whatnot, or who has this body and whatnot? So, it’s this, again, upholding of an ideal that kind of takes our attention away from what we truly need, but we’re moving towards what we think we need because it is the ideal.
Natalie Miller: Yeah, and, I mean, we’re told, right, productivity, be productive, work hard, then you’ll get everything that you want.
Shanique Allen: All the things that you want, right?
Natalie Miller: Yeah. We’re not like [laugh]—nobody’s saying, “Treat yourself as kindly and generously as possible.” [laugh] No.
Shanique Allen: No.
Natalie Miller: No, we’re not getting that.
Shanique Allen: No. Everybody’s like, “You need to push hard. You need to hustle hard.”
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: You need to do this. You need to do that. And in the pursuit of all of those things, we completely forget that you’re a human, living, breathing being that needs some kind of sustenance, that needs nourishment. And that nourishment might lead you in different places. It might lead you towards this ideal but it will lead it to you where you can be thriving. It can lead you to where you can be happy.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. And sometimes, I think, when we do look at the places that we’re starving [laugh], starving for meaningful work, starving for good sex in our relationship [laugh], right—whatever it is that we’re really hungry for—when we turn towards those, sometimes there are some big changes that need to happen, and that can be really scary.
Shanique Allen: Yeah, that can certainly be scary, and it’s almost like the safety of the dysfunction or the disconnect, there’s some safety in it. Like, I know that this is not right. I know that this is not nourishing. But I don’t know what else exists. I’m safe right now knowing this exists and this is not feeling good, but I don’t know when I change it what it’s going to mean, and that uncertainty or the fear of that unknown makes it an even harder thing to shift towards.
Natalie Miller: Yes. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, let me [laugh]—if we go back to that control element too, it’s like, OK, I’ll stay in this shitty marriage and this shitty job, but I’m going to go out of my mind on that plate of nachos. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: [laugh]
Natalie Miller: Like, I’m going all in on that plate of nachos. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: I can get some pleasure there.
Natalie Miller: Listen, nachos are like best, right? So, but you know what I mean? It’s like—
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: —well, yeah, it’s no wonder. It’s no wonder. And then, of course, let me hate myself for it afterward so I stay in this shitty job and I stay in the shitty marriage, right?
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: Ugh, it’s just a vicious cycle.
Shanique Allen: It is.
Natalie Miller: The other thing I loved you saying about health—I don’t remember where I saw this, Shanique, because I’m a fan. I follow your stuff. But it was something about health and healing that health is not this kind of like Golden Snitch. I don’t know. This Harry Potter reference just came to me. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: I love that, love that.
Natalie Miller: Health isn’t this thing that, like, if you’re good and fast and talented enough, you’ll get it, and then it’ll be yours. Health is actually a process, and it involves healing.
Shanique Allen: Yeah, it’s not a destination that you get to, and put your feet up.
Natalie Miller: Yes.
Shanique Allen: It’s a journey that has no end date. So, it’s a matter of literally strapping in and recognizing that there are going to be some real bumpy points. But then once you can get through those bumpy points, or if you choose to work through those bumpy points, on the other side of that is the healing, which then makes the journey not easier so much as more durable, or you make you durable for the journey, if that makes sense.
And healing for a lot of people comes in many different ways. So, when I speak of it generally, I’m speaking of, you know, again, I’m inviting people, “What part of you needs to heal?” Because a lot of us use food as a way to... we figure, OK. If I can fix my body, then I’ll have the healing that I need, when food is the very last thing that you need healing with.
It might just be fixing your relationship; leaving a toxic relationship. It might be getting, you know, a hold on your finances. It might be, you know, dealing with your childhood trauma where, you know, your family is shit. You know what I mean?
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: So, a lot of us focus on healing from the, “OK, I need to just heal my body,” and by “heal,” it might for a lot of people, it means I need to just lose weight. A lot of people—and no shame here; no judgment here. But I’ve often—I often hear in conversations that I have with people who are trying to shift something in their lives use their weight as the thing they need to do.
Natalie Miller: Yes.
Shanique Allen: So, the weight—I need to lose this weight—so, it’s not I need to work on lowering my blood pressure, or I need to improve my lipid profile, or I need to, you know, help with my breathing so my asthma does not flare up the way it does, it’s—
Natalie Miller: Yeah [laugh], I need to sleep.
Shanique Allen: Right.
Natalie Miller: I need to figure out how to sleep.
Shanique Allen: All those things are secondary, and what is primary is the weight, and weight is not a behavior. It is not. Health-promoting habits vary. Health-promoting habits have very little to do with weight, and people will tell you, “The science is X, Y, Z.” And, like, the science, a lot of the science was done by one type of population, one. Two, it’s not particularly expansive, and it excludes a lot of communities that are disproportionately affected by certain conditions and certain situations.
Natalie Miller: That’s right. It turns out science is also—
Shanique Allen: Biased.
Natalie Miller: —kind of racist and patriarchal.
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: What do you know? [laugh]
Shanique Allen: Yeah, I mean, there is some science that’s happening now to change that, and studies to shift that. But it’s still—we’re still predominantly impacted by science that was done on a limited type of population. So, as I was saying, what I was talking about science is that science can go so far but, at the same time, it cannot ignore people’s lived experiences.
Natalie Miller: No, and also what I’m hearing as you’re saying that is that there’s how you look, and there’s what the scale says, and then there’s how you feel, and how your body is actually functioning.
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: Like, I’ve said this before. I gained a lot of weight when I started lifting weights. Of course, I did. I’m so much stronger now, right? And the scale, I won’t lie to you, the scale—I was like, what is happening? And how did I feel? Exactly how they’ve taught me to feel: out of control, concerned something might wrong, right, even though I had less pain and better endurance and, you know, all—
Shanique Allen: [laugh]
Natalie Miller: —all kinds of other things. I felt good but the numbers and my shirts [laugh] that didn’t fit on my shoulders anymore, you know, said differently to me, so.
Shanique Allen: Yeah. For a friend, she thought about that often in terms of something as simple getting stronger as a measure of progress, a measure of “good”—and I use “good” in quotes—good health. Like, people see those things as secondary because the weight is the primary focus. Here is my thing. I have no problem if someone wants to change their weight.
There’s nothing wrong if that’s what you want to do because, hey, body autonomy is the thing, and we all have it and should have it. What I am inviting people to do is to think about that weight in a different light. Is it the weight that you’re concerned with, or what the weight means?
Natalie Miller: Right, or a great way to do it is to ask why?
Shanique Allen: People will say, “Well, it’s because of my weight why my knees hurt, or it’s because of the weight why I’m having back pain.” I’m like, “Well, let’s see. Is that the case? Let’s evaluate.” And then if we look at all the things that may or may not be happening, one, we can’t tell what the cause of it is until you try something new, and try something that makes sense, because it’s not the—it’s never really about the weight, more often than not about what the weight means, either what it means or what it no longer means for somebody.
But, also, they attach an identity to changing bodies or a loss of identity, there is this fear of losing your identity, and I can speak to this specifically because I’m a former athlete, competitive athlete. I spent a good portion of my life up to my 30s being that. And when I stopped, it was almost like you’re grieving the person who you were because your body’s changed. You’re no longer that “fit”—and I say that in quotations. And as that change continues to show, you struggle. OK, so who am I now outside of that weight? Who am I outside of playing my sport? Who am I outside of that body?
Natalie Miller: And not for nothing, there is a privilege that comes with having that kind of a body on the outside, right?
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: If you [laugh] have a sense of longing for the days when you looked in a bikini the way that the dominant culture says you should look in a bikini, that makes sense. You did have more power then. You had that privilege, right?
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: It is shifting though, you know. Just today, I was bra shopping online, and I was pleasantly surprised by the number of photos I saw with stretch marks, with rolls, with a wider variety—
Shanique Allen: Real bodies.
Natalie Miller: —yes, of real bodies, with prosthetic limbs. I mean, I was really excited, actually, to see that. And I thought, you know, as I’m thinking about my media diet, like, what I consume media-wise, I need more and more of this. I need to look for these accounts. I need to look at these catalogs. I need to look at these companies because they’re showing me reality, right?
Shanique Allen: Yeah.
Natalie Miller: And it felt really good to shop for a bra on a site where I was like, oh, yeah, that’s kind of what my boobs look like. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: And it’s important because, to use a phrase, representation matters, and you see that. I reposted somebody else’s Instagram post yesterday where she said, “Diversify your feed,” and it showed a range of fitness instructors who don’t look like the normal of what people consider to be fit people. We’re talking people in fat bodies, in Black bodies, and disabled people. We’re talking queer, trans people.
And it was a call. I’m like, I need to reshare this because this is truly something that we need to see. I remember years ago when I was a personal trainer, I was looking for your some YouTube videos to demonstrate some exercise as opposed to me filming it. It wasn’t as bad then, you know, having the apps now is not as easy as then. So, now, it’s very easy to just find a different kind of exercise.
I was looking for somebody who looked like me, and I could not find a Black woman doing exercises. Mostly when you google “Black woman doing exercises,” I wanted to tear my hair out, and it pissed me off. I’m like, something is wrong with this. But, at the same time, you’re like, oh, well, I guess this is the stuff that’s cool, and it was just sad.
And I’m like if there are so many people looking for people to look like them, representing them in these spaces of health and wellness, what happens when they don’t see them? So, part of dismantling that culture is, one, recognizing the privilege that exists for a lot of people and, two, recognizing that there are different bodies that exist in the space that are healthy, that are fit, or even if they are not “healthy”—and I use “healthy” in quotes here—because there’s also this perception that so long as you’re healthy, then you’re good. You’re OK. You’re worth it.
But you have people with chronic conditions and autoimmune conditions. They have no control over these things. Are they not worthy as well? And that’s part of the question that needs to happen.
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: And, I mean, that’s just now happened too, so I’m also trying to be mindful when I speak of “healthy” because you’re kind of—this sense of you being morally—you being better than somebody else because, as long as you’re healthy, when the spectrum of health is wide, so we have to honor that.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. That’s why I love orienting the idea of health toward like this sort of healing, right? Health isn’t this thing that we just achieve. Health is being in the process of healing, and isn’t that what we’re all doing all the time? We are always healing, right, as life gets life-y [laugh] and we heal from it. So, you know, that makes me think also, Shanique, I’m sure—it’s May, so people may be thinking about bathing suits right now, right?
Shanique Allen: Mm-hmm, like myself.
Natalie Miller: Yeah. I’m always amazed how I will get anxious about buying a bathing suit. And, really, the best thing for me to do is to go to the beach [laugh] because on the beach are so many different bodies, and on the beach, what are people doing? They’re reading their books. They’re looking for shells. They’re building sandcastles. They’re swimming in the ocean. Maybe they’re kind of looking at other people’s bodies but, like, it’s not what I imagine. Like, I’m going to be [laugh] like—
Shanique Allen: In the spotlight. [laugh]
Natalie Miller: —in the spotlight. It’s like, oh, I forgot, actually, everyone has different bodies, right, when I actually get into the world. And you know what matters a hell of a lot less than my like—or a hell of a lot more than my belly is, like, this ocean, or this receding shoreline that’s freaking me out. [laugh] It’s like climate change is happening, right? It’s like, wow, there are more important things.
So, that actually brings me to this. This was just devastating. I loved this so much from you. This is another Shanique post, everybody, so if you don’t already follow her on the ‘Gram or the Facebook, you should definitely go and find her. So, here we go. Are you ready?
She says, you say, Shanique, “Torturing yourself with food and fitness in preparation for summer body season is not discipline. It’s disordered behavior.” [laugh] And I was, again, fist up. I was like, yes, it is. [laugh]
Shanique Allen: It is. Now, think about it, seriously. Twelve months in a year. Summer is three months in some places; all year in others. But it is the season when people are going to be showing off bodies at parties, on the beach. It doesn’t have to be the beach because where I’m from, yeah, it’s always on the beach but parties are happening all summer long, all these events that people want to show up and show out.
So, a summer body, you always hear people talk about summer body. There are songs about summer body. And [laugh] people will put themselves through, “I need to lose 15 pounds. I need to get ready for this event,” and put themselves through pain and torture, to what end? To go to a few events. And then what?
I mean, first of all, let’s talk about the fact that people will cut out foods only to go to a party to eat the bu…especially if it’s one of those all-inclusive parties. They will go to a party to, we would say, nam down—
Natalie Miller: [laugh]
Shanique Allen: —which [laugh] eat nam down the buffet, and drink their weight in alcohol. Does that not spell disordered behavior? I don’t know. If that doesn’t spell disordered behavior, I don’t know what it is. And that screws up their relationship. Maybe it doesn’t for some, but for many and most, it does because it puts them back on the cycle. OK.
When summer is finished, then it’s back to normal. And then when summer’s coming up again, it’s like let’s turn things up. So, they do all the hard workouts, multiple workouts a day. They’re eating just the salads and the protein. And I’m like how is your relationship with food? Can you be around food and it not being, one, the thing you think about all the time? Because if you’re always thinking about your next meal, or thinking about the next time you’re going to eat, because I’m not—this is what happens. When you restrict food, food gets on your head. Like, that’s all you think about.
Natalie Miller: Right, again, because the body’s smart, like you said. [laugh] Body’s smart. Body’s like, wait, are we not having food because we actually need food. So, let’s think about it.
Shanique Allen: Yeah, I’m going to make you be consumed with thoughts of food, right?
Natalie Miller: Yeah.
Shanique Allen: And that does not seem, a red flag does not go off. No, what happens is I just need to be more disciplined. That’s what happens. Punish yourself with all these kinds of exercise. And if it’s not—if you’re not dying on the floor when you’re done, and sweating buckets, and burning all these calories, it’s not worth it. It’s got to stop. Like, at some point, you’re going to have to say, “This is enough.”
Natalie Miller: Yes. So, Shanique and I stand for a world where we are turning away from controlling our bodies, and toward nourishing our bodies; turning away from discipline, and toward compassion. And we’re standing for a world where health is healing. It is hard to be a human in an industrialist, capitalist, late-capitalist society. These structures we’ve built are not for people.
Shanique Allen: Robots.
Natalie Miller: They’re not for people. They don’t treat people and our health well. And, so, I love this, Shanique’s invitation that we can think about our health more broadly, like expanding it out beyond the scale number or the measurement number, the size number, and into all the other things that matter in our lives. I just—that is just so good.
So, Shanique, you gestured toward this already. So many of us, we want to nourish our bodies, and we want to nourish our bodies with food and exercise. It’s not to say those things aren’t important. They’re very important. But we don’t know how, and we need help. So, you offer that. So, do you want to tell people a little bit about how they can work with you and learn from you?
Shanique Allen: Yeah. So, first of all, if you want to connect with me, I am on Instagram, shaniqueallen_. I’m also on TikTok at that same handle. Facebook, you have to be a friend of mine. [laugh] So, there’s that. But in terms of working with me, you can go to my website: www.shaniqueallen.com. And I currently work with people around through nourishment strategies. That’s what I call them—strategy sessions, rather.
These are sessions where we take a deep dive into what’s going on in your life, and how it is that you want to better nourish yourself so you can show up in life the way that you want. And if you’re struggling with food outside of, say, having an eating disorder, in which I will always refer people out to licensed practitioners for that because I’m not a therapist, nor am I licensed to deal with people to treat or counsel those with eating disorders. I do have people weighed through some of the habits that they do have that might promote disordered eating.
So, I work with people to develop what I call nourishment strategies so that they can use food as the tool it was meant to be. Food is neutral. It’s a neutral tool but it’s a tool that fosters or that facilitates things like connection, you know, shared community, culture. And getting people to see that and use it in the way they want it to, for whatever purpose they need it for so that they can add the nourishment that they’re needing in their lives.
So, through nourishment strategy sessions, you can set up a call with me to discover if that’s something that you want. It’s www.shaniqueallen.com, and I can’t wait to talk to anyone who wants to find their own nourishment strategies so they can be themselves.
Natalie Miller: I love it. All right. So, everyone listening, please know you already have a bikini body.
Shanique Allen: Show up.
Natalie Miller: You already have one.
Shanique Allen: Just put it on.
Natalie Miller: I’ll see you at the beach.
Shanique Allen: And you already have a beach body; just show up.
Natalie Miller: Yes. Yeah, you already have a beach body. And you know what? If you’re out of control, good. We need you out of control right now. [laugh] We don’t need you in control. How about in compassion and in health and in pleasure and in—
Shanique Allen: Healing.
Natalie Miller: —healing, and in healing? Shanique, thank you so much for joining me today on the Mind Witchery.
Shanique Allen: Thank you for having me.
Natalie Miller: All right, everyone, thanks so much for listening. Bye for now.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind Witchery. To catch all the magic I’m offering, please subscribe to the show, or if you want a little bit of weekly witchiness in your inbox, sign up for my Sunday Letter at mindwitchery.com. If today’s episode made you think of a friend or loved one, your sister, your neighbor, please tell them about it. We need more magic-makers in this troubled world.
Like all good things, this podcast is co-created by stellar people. Our music is by fabulous DJ, artist, and producer, Shammy Dee. Our gorgeous art is by the sorcerers at New Moon Creative. Mind Witchery is produced in conjunction with Particulate Media, K.O. Myers, executive producer. And I am Natalie Miller. Till next time.
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