Conjuring Changemaking feat. Erika Tebbens

My guest this week is Erika Tebbens,

a fellow witch, author, growth strategist, and a beautiful soul

who’s here to help us change the way we think about change.

The dominant culture wants us to believe that hardship and struggle

are the only ways to make change in the world.

But there isn’t just one way to make things better,

and we’re going to show you how to start finding yours.

Subscribe! Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Pandora | Spotify | Stitcher | TuneIn

Mentioned:

Erika’s website, https://erikatebbens.com, and her book You've Got This! A Counterintuitive Guide to Powerful, Inevitable Changemaking

timewitchery.com/planner, where you can get a Time Witchery planner to help resource your changemaking journey.

Make Magic:

How do you want your life to look? What is the thing that you want from the future?

Most of us can't just snap our fingers and make that happen. But what about a part of it? 

How do you pull the smallest bit of that into your current reality right now?

Transcript: Conjuring Changemaking feat. Erika Tebbens

Natalie Miller: It's those tiny things that are actually not tiny at all. They feel enormous, and they are enormous, and they do snowball, right? I will tell you right now, I would not be here talking to you, having a podcast, had it not been for things like a bag of dinner showing up once a month when I really, really needed it. Like, that unlocked for me hope and faith and gratitude and time and energy, and now I'm getting teary, right? Like, it unlocked for me all of this, like, light and goodness in a moment that was quite dark, actually. And that's what we're here to do for each other. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And I will note too, like, that beautiful human who did that, that's not going to put her on a 40 Under 40. That's not going to get her recognized at a gala. That's not going to get her, you know, Person of the Year Award. It will probably never be noticed outside of anyone but the recipients of her generosity, and that is OK.

[Music]

Natalie Miller: Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host, Natalie Miller, and I’m so glad you’re here. 

Hello, my friends. I am so excited to introduce you to a fellow witch, a total witch, this woman, and a friend and colleague of mine. Her name is Erika Tebbens. Erika, hello. 

Erika Tebbens: Hello. Hello. Really, I'm so tempted to just be like, "Longtime listener, first time caller" [laugh]—

Natalie Miller: [laugh] 

Erika Tebbens: —of the Mind Witchery podcast. [laugh] 

Natalie Miller: [laugh] Of the Mind Witchery. Erika is, well, actually, Erika, like, I don't need to introduce you. Introduce yourself. Tell us about you. What does Erika do in the world? 

Erika Tebbens: Great question. What don't I do, really? Currently, I'm doing a lot of knitting, and rewatching of Game of Thrones, since we were talking about dragons before we started recording. But, in general, I am a growth strategist for visionary entrepreneurs, leaders, and changemakers. So, how that looks like in practical terms is a lot of doing a lot of strategic growth consulting that focuses on connection-centered, relationship-focused sales and marketing strategies, and also creating growth plans that really center the needs, desires, and values of the entrepreneur, of the person running the business, and as it relates to the change that they want to make with their business in the world. 

I also do speaking, and obviously I do writing. I'm on a big mission to show every single changemaker their own personal path to making that happen in a really sustainable and beautiful way. 

Natalie Miller: I love that. So, those are like keywords, for me, for Erika Tebbens are magical and anti-sleaze, right? Like, when you say, "relationship-centered like sales," it's like, yeah, how do you sell things to people without being creepy and gross? And a growth strategist, Erika actually helped me as I was packaging up Time Witchery, and trying to figure out what I wanted to look like. I was like, "I know exactly who I need to talk to about this, and it is Erika Tebbens." 

So, Erika supports changemakers, and she also supports changemakers in, like, not running themselves ragged, right? Like, people who want to serve, you don't actually have to serve your flesh and bones and entire soul when [laugh] you're serving. So, that's what I think of when I think of Erika Tebbens.

Erika Tebbens: Thank you. Yeah, and I was so stoked to get to help you with your project and your new offer. And when that Voxer came through, I was like, "Oh, hell, yeah. Let's do it, Natalie."

Natalie Miller: I know.

Erika Tebbens: Like, I just could not wait, so thank you. Thank you for thinking of me. And, yeah, I mean, my Pisces Rising sees your Pisces Rising, and just really wants to give and give, and help and help, and then you know how it goes for people like us. [laugh] 

Natalie Miller: I know how it goes. It's like, we do, we have this like ocean of love and hope and possibility, and we sometimes forget that the ocean also has to, like, draw into herself, right [laugh], so it's not just a give and give. It's also a receive. So, today we're going to talk about your book. I'm always so fucking impressed when people write books.

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Like, are you—like, here you are, out in the world in the 2020s, and you're, like, writing books. I just am—

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: It's amazing to me. So, the book is called You've Got This! A Counterintuitive Guide to Powerful, Inevitable Changemaking. And it is so—it's such a, like, encouraging read. Like, I felt myself—I was like—it was like sitting next to someone. You know, OK, this is the metaphor I've got for you. I'm reading this book, and I'm, like, I'm on a train on an adventure, and the train is just on the rails, and it's just chugging along, and my best friend is sitting next to me, telling me I can do anything. [laugh] And I was just like, "Hell, yeah, I want to be on this ride." It was so, so fun to read. 

Erika Tebbens: I love that because, as a lover of travel, especially train travel, I mean, that's exactly what I want it to feel like. I feel like we—like, I want it to feel like we're going on an adventure together, and I'm like, "Yeah, hey, you know, like, we don't necessarily know what's going to happen but, either way, it's going to be a good time, and some good stories for later," so, yeah. [laugh] 

Natalie Miller: Yes. Well, Pisces Rising to Pisces Rising, Sagittarius Midheaven to Sagittarius Midheaven [laugh]—

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —we're like, "Yes, this whole thing's an adventure." OK. So, we're going to talk about that today. But, actually, you know where I wanted to start was, because I—and I think you'll know why. What are you knitting right now? What are you making right now? 

Erika Tebbens: Oh.

Natalie Miller: Because Erika and I are both knitters. So, Erika, what are you knitting right now? 

Erika Tebbens: Yes, I am actually making a shawl for my phenomenal sister-in-law, who is a midwife in Mexico. And they are about to move to an area that is a little bit chillier. I'm almost done, but I'm going to be mailing it to her soon. I'm hoping to finish it this week. 

Natalie Miller: I love it. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. 

Natalie Miller: I am currently knitting a baby blanket for a client who's having a baby.

Erika Tebbens: Aww. I love it. 

Natalie Miller: I know. 

Erika Tebbens: I love it. 

Natalie Miller: Yes, so, it's super fun. OK. And then, since you brought it up, it matters. I don't know why it matters. We'll find out later. But Game of Thrones, who's your favorite character?

Erika Tebbens: Definitely Olenna Tyrell because—

Natalie Miller: You'll have to remind me. Remind me who this is. 

Erika Tebbens: OK. So, I know there's like 12 billion people. So, Margaery Tyrell, what's her name? Natalie Dormer, I believe, is her name in real life. She is the younger one, who then she marries Joffrey for like a hot second, and then his brother.

Natalie Miller: And she's kind of like, as I'm remembering, she's beautiful, and you have the sense that she's also quite smart and shrewd, but it's so well veiled. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. OK. So, Margaery Tyrell is the younger one. But Olenna—I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that like in the proper way—is her grandmother. So, she is the older woman. She always wears that, like, cap that goes far down on her forehead with like the chin strap of chiffon. And she just says what she thinks. She's pulling no punches. She's really honest. She knows what she wants, and knows how to get after it. 

Like, she is just that woman where you're like, "Oh, I just wish I had the courage to, like, be like her in the sense of how witty and honest she is when she's in conversation with somebody." So, I love her. But then also Samwell Tarly, he gives me, like, Samwise Gamgee vibes. And he's just great. 

Natalie Miller: Samwell is like the library pal, right? 

Erika Tebbens: Yes, of John Snow. 

Natalie Miller: Yeah, OK.

Erika Tebbens: Uh-huh. [laugh] 

Natalie Miller: Yes, uh-huh, uh-huh. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: So, he's like this kind of lovable, cozy guy who is in this world where everybody fights all the time, and he just wants to go, like, learn and study in the library, and that's his contribution. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah, and the thing I love about him is like where Olenna is very, like, she's sharp, you know. She's very like, "I'm a bad bitch, but I'm not going to be like overtly cruel like a Cersei Lannister. I'm going to be like smart and savvy." But Samwell is very, like, he is the underdog, and I love an underdog. Like, he shows up to the Wall, to the Night's Watch. He cannot fight. He is a book nerd. 

But then he ends up doing a lot of really brave and courageous things, born out of his love for his partner Gilly, and their son, and John Snow, and, like, all the other people, right? And like that is very much—I just love that. Like, nothing gets me going like an underdog who does, against all odds, something with like great love, and a great courage born out of great love. 

Natalie Miller: And now I know why I had to ask you—

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —about these Game of Throne characters, right? Because, like, part of the point in your book, and something that you and I definitely vibe on and resonate with one another, is that, like, the point actually is that we are all different. The point is that we each have our own way. We each have our own gifts. We each have our own contribution to make around here. 

Erika Tebbens: Yes, that's exactly it. And I think that where we get tripped up is with the comparison. Really, like, this book is rooted in the fact that so many of us, we look at the people like Oprah, like a Melinda Gates, like a Beyoncé, and we're like, "Well, I'll never measure up to that, so if I can't be that, then why bother? Like, I'm not actually going to make a difference. I'm not actually going to be inspiring, so I'm just going to play small, or I'm just not even going to try because if I can't go big, then I'll just stay at home, right?" 

Like, I feel like that's kind of the way we look at it. And the reality is that, as you know as well, is that we all have the individual thing that we are supposed to be bringing into the world. And that can actually be multiple things over the course of our lives. And kind of like the Game of Thrones or anything like that, right, like, we're geeking out about fantasy and D&D before this. 

Like, in a D&D party, you can only play really like D&D, at least in my knowledge, with a group of people. And it's supposed to be a group of diverse characters and skill traits and powers and potions, because if you can all do the same thing, then you actually can't defeat the goblin or whatever it is that you're fighting. You need that diversity. 

Natalie Miller: Right. Yeah. And it's like really leaning into what makes you you, and also—and this is kind of the first like point—if we're in this episode today, conjuring change, conjuring the change that we want to see, the first point is like what do you want? Because I think, so many times, we think something like, "Oh, I would love to just be able to go on a little retreat." 

This is how my own retreats practice was born, like, both giving and receiving retreats, Erika, is I was a young mother, running a business, exhausted, who was always giving my attention to little kids, to partner, to students, to staff, right? And all I wanted was a little bit of time to myself, and I wanted it for me, right? And by learning how to do that for me, like, not for anybody else, just for me, OK, how does that work? How? What would it look like to take a little spot of time? Like, what's the mindset I would need to take a spot of time for myself? What is the support I would need? What's the infrastructure I would need? What would make that easier? 

Like, figuring out that puzzle for myself enabled me to figure it out for others. And so now, I've led hundreds of people on retreat [laugh], right? And that, I know, has rippled out so that they also are leading retreats. And it's like when we do what we want, we show and create this little window of possibility. We open it up. And it's not just for us. It's never just for us. It's always for the other people that are around us. And I love that you make this point in the book, right, that like it really does start with selfishness. What do you want? 

Erika Tebbens: A lot of what I do, whether it's what I talk about in the book or what I do with my own clients, is born out of my own mistakes, and then figuring out a better, more supportive way forward, and being like, "Oh, I want people to avoid this trap that I've fallen into with the giving, giving, giving, or doing it in this way that leads to burnout," right, and then also being like, "and I've found this better way to do it, but, like, you're going to have to trust me a little bit because it is counterintuitive." 

And I think that's where that selfishness comes in because we hear, and our people hear "selfish," and they recoil from it. But it's really more in line with what you talk about when you talk about treats, right? Like, looking at what is that thing that you, like, how do you want your life to look? How do you want your days and your weeks and your months to look? And honoring the fact that most of us can't just snap our fingers right now, and have that be a reality. But what is the smallest part of that, right? 

So, if you have young kids and a busy business and all of that, maybe you're not in a season of your life where you can take yourself on a week-long retreat. But can you do one night in a hotel? Can you even do one night, you know, like, the kids just go to bed early, and you set up a beautiful sanctuary for yourself, right? Like, what is the thing that you want from the future? How do you pull the smallest bit of that that you can right now into your current reality? And that small bit is going to look different for each of us, but it allows us to start to see and feel what is truly possible, right? 

So, like, a lot of people want to be very generous with their money, right? You might be like, "Well, I can't just—my goal is I want to write a $10,000 check to my favorite organization, but I can't right now." OK. What could you do? Like, could you do 5 a month, 100 a month? You know, like, what is that thing, because then you can feel into the body of philanthropy and generosity and all of that, and start to actually see yourself as, "Oh, I actually am a philanthropist. I'm not yet at the level where I want to be, but I am actually doing it now, right?"

Maybe there are things that, for now, you have to sacrifice a little bit to take yourself to that weekend at the hotel. But if that weekend at the hotel cracks something open that amplifies everything else, it's so worth it to be selfish in that way for a time. 

Natalie Miller: Yeah. One of the things that I was sort of noticing as you were speaking is just this idea that really—and it's easy to forget this, I think. But we are always just going along step-by-step. Like, the largest changes happen small step by small step. It's bit-by-bit, I think. And it was a huge deal to go away for exactly what you said. Like, I got an Airbnb for one night, two hours away. So, I had like a two-hour drive and an overnight, and a two-hour drive back, and it felt like the most enormous thing. I couldn't have imagined it without having taken that small step, right? 

It's almost like you think you know what's going to happen, but we actually don't know what's going to happen. And, so, if I were instead trying to kind of like build toward a five-year plan of like, you know, go away for an entire summer, it's just like do you even want that in five years? Is that like [laugh], you know, like, what is it actually right now that's important? And could you talk about that a little bit, about like the right nowness? Because that's something I truly believe in, is like, fuck planning. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I'm sorry. Fuck planning. Especially in the 2020s, we don't know what's happening. So, what is the change we want right now? What do you think? Are you on board with me in this? 

Erika Tebbens: I'm totally on board with you. For me, it's really about, well, I'll frame it in the language you use, right? It's the vibes and the values of like how do you want to feel as you are doing your work? How do you want to feel as you are doing your leisure, as you are doing your, you know, any of the other categories of our lives, right? And, also, what is important to you? Because, again, anything we say yes to, right, we're always doing that dance of like something else needs to kind of be put aside, right? 

We all have a finite amount of time and energy and all of that. And, you know, some have more than others, right? And, so, we're always making choices. And it's not that one choice is better or more right than another choice, but I think that when we really think about like what do we actually value, it makes it easier to go, "Oh, you know what, responding to those emails can wait. I'm going to go take a walk because it's a beautiful sunny day, and this is what I feel like I need right now." 

This is going to replenish me, right? And I also think that, like what you said, like, we can never actually know the future, right? There's so many things that I have done that have led me to the place where I wrote this book that in the moment when they were happening, I was never like, wow, this is going to be great for the future, you know? 

It was just like when I was, you know, married to an active duty military member, and pregnant, and on food assistance, and broke, and my life was awful, I wasn't like, "Oh, this'll make really inspiring content for somebody, you know, like, in the future." I was just like, "This moment of my life sucks really, really bad. But, like, what are the choices that I am going to make in this moment?"

Natalie Miller: Yeah. You know, that actually I want to kind of call forward something that Martha Beck teaches. And as you've heard, my friend, I'm a Martha Beck-trained coach. Her Wayfinder coaching is my kind of modality. And one thing that she talks about is how, really, when we're thinking about something that we want—let's say a promotion, a summer house, a weekend away—like, when we're thinking about something that we want, it's not actually the thing that we want. What we want is the feeling we imagine we're going to have when we have it, right? 

So, I might say like, you know, "Oh, I really want to have the entire month of August off." But really what I'm saying is, "I want to feel free in August. I want to feel relaxed in August. I want to feel open and creative in August." Right? For Natalie Miller, the entire August off is probably not actually going to feel free [laugh] and open and creative because there is something about me that loves to engage and co-create. And, so, if I were to just sort of say, "I'm not going to do anything at all," I don't know how well that would go for me. 

And, so, what Martha teaches is like, OK, so, you imagine that's how you're going to feel. You figure out how do I think this thing is going to make me feel? And we could think about, like, it could be like I want to run five miles every morning. OK, cool [laugh], maybe. Good luck. [laugh] 

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: But, like, how do you imagine that's going to make you feel? And then what happens instead if you kind of detach a little bit from the thing, like the goal, and instead you go, "You know what I want more in my life? I want freedom, openness, creativity, relaxed." And, so, every single day, like right now, how do I get a little bit of that? What could I do? What could I read? Who could I talk to? What could I engage that is going to help me to conjure up those desired vibes right now?

Erika Tebbens: Exactly. That's such a perfect way of describing it because, yeah, I mean, that is essentially like my whole section on selfishness, like, and anchoring into the future, and figuring out your changemaking path, like, all of that is rooted in how you want your life to look and feel, and how you want the world around you to look and feel. It's easier to, like, step into it piece-by-piece when you can get that taste of it and be like, "Oh, I am actually doing that right now." 

I think about it too, like, how jarring it would be to our nervous system if everything that we said we desire just happened overnight, right? Like, I don't know, if just one minute, you thought like, "I want to, you know, serve on Congress or something," and then you woke up tomorrow, and that was your job, you'd be like, "Ah, this is a little bit, like, this is too much." Or like, "I want to run a nonprofit." OK, if you did that next week, as hard as that is, you know, I'm an impatient person—

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Erika Tebbens: —so it's not always easy to wait, the time that it takes. But, also, in hindsight, all of those different things I've done, if it just happened instantaneously, I think it would've been a bit much to handle. 

Natalie Miller: Well, and it's like not aligned, right? I mean, I think of it—this is, OK, weird analogy time but, you know, what do you expect? I was just thinking of it as like in my living room right now, I'm really, really happy with my living room. And the reason I'm really, really happy with it is that (a) it's always evolving. Like, I'm always changing a little something. And (b) and, listeners, I hope you're into this example, but it's like the pieces in there, I have accumulated them over time. Like, it's very integrated. It's very authentic. 

It's different from like an IKEA showroom living room, right, where like these pieces all go together, but there's no like soul in it. It's sort of just like this coordinates, right? My living room right now is like, oh, this is the first piece of furniture I bought when I moved into my own apartment. And this is a piece of art that my sister made for me in this moment in my life. And this blanket came from a friend who gave it to me. And when I traveled to Portugal, I got this basket, and it's like—do you know what I mean? 

And so, like, everywhere you look, like, it really feels like me. And what it is, not that I was like, "I want like the perfect living room," it was like, "I like this piece. I like that piece. You know what would be nice? Fluffy, soft blankets. I like this one. You know what would be nice? More plants, always." Right? [laugh] 

Erika Tebbens: Always. 

Natalie Miller: Always. 

Erika Tebbens: Always.

Natalie Miller: Right? Yeah. Like, I like this one, and so it's almost like, because it organically has kind of come about, it feels very, like, rich and authentic, and it's for real. It's not fake. It's not put on. It's like slowly cultivated over time, and there's something so deep and integrated about that. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And it actually made me think of, because I'm sure, as it has evolved, you've also gotten rid of things too, right, to make room for others. And, like, thinking about like having it be authentic, and having it be personalized to you, and adjusting and evolving as you go, I have realized—and we can all point to something like this in our own lives where we think that one thing will give us a feeling, right? We think that doing one thing will get us to a feeling, and then we actually go, "Oh, no, it doesn't, and now I have to decide what I'm going to do next." 

But we don't know that until we've experienced it. So, for me, one of the ways that I have found I do not like making change is volunteering in such a way that requires me to sit through a lot of meetings. It just doesn't work for me. I have the time. I have the capacity. I don't like how it feels in my body to just talk and talk and talk in a Zoom meeting about making change. And I could sit here and judge myself and all of the things, and I certainly have. But once I'm really honest, I go, you know what, that's OK. I can make change in a different way. 

I thought this was going to get me the feeling of helping to bring change forth, and in fact it didn't. And, so, now I have new information, and I just know this isn't my way of making change in the world. But if I step out of this container, I actually make room for somebody else who this is their way. They can serve on this board, and I can leave and go do something else, right? So, I have also had to edit the ways in which I choose to make change in the world, and that's not always easy, but it does feel more authentic to who I am. 

Natalie Miller: I want to make this like super explicit because I think—

Erika Tebbens: Yes. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —this is such a fabulous—this is such a good example, right? So, when you are in activist Erika, when you're in changemaking self, and you're thinking like, "OK, helping with this cause is going to make me feel," like, what are the desired vibes that you really want when you think about, "Yes, I'm going to help with this cause"? Like, how do you want to feel? Let's find like maybe three.

Erika Tebbens: Useful, potent, and like the word that comes to mind is like activating. So, activator is my number one on my CliftonStrengths. So, kind of what I mean by that is like activating others into action or to join me or to come along for the ride.

Natalie Miller: Right. Yeah. Cool. OK. So with those three, with like useful, potent, and activating, like, all of these are so action-oriented, like doing-oriented, and so it makes complete and total sense that if your changemaking commitment involves you sitting on Zoom—

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —or in a room, right, like, none of that is going to feel the way that you want to feel, right? And, I don't know about you, but [laugh] I become a not so benevolent presence in those situations. I become a shit-stirrer. Let's just be frank about it. 

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I'm like, "This is boring. Like, let's stir [laugh] up some controversy," right?

Erika Tebbens: Yes. 

Natalie Miller: A friend of mine says, "Begin as you mean to go on," right? 

Erika Tebbens: Oh, yes.

Natalie Miller: It's like, yeah, so, on this changemaking journey, I mean to be potent and activating and useful, and so that's where I actually have to start. Like, rather than be on the board of the food bank, I'd like to be packing up boxes of cans, right?

Erika Tebbens: Absolutely. And I think that we have this interesting idea—without going down a whole rabbit hole—that the sitting on the board is more worthy work than the packing of the boxes, right? That it's something you should want to aspire to this higher, more like prestigious level of volunteerism, which is not necessarily right for every person. 

Natalie Miller: Yeah, because we're all different, because some of us want to be fighting dragons, and some of us want to be finding all the secret books in the library, right? [laugh] 

Erika Tebbens: Yes. [laugh] 

Natalie Miller: Right? [laugh] Totally. 

Erika Tebbens: Exactly. Exactly. 

Natalie Miller: Yeah. So, you say in your book, "I want to change the way you think about change," which of course immediately I'm like, "Go on."

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: "I want to hear [laugh] all about it." And as I was reading like kind of the assumptions, and what you want to change our minds about, this is the one that kind of like paused me because, I agree, we don't need to know all the steps. No, we don't need to know all the steps. The steps are always evolving. I was like, yeah, check, right? You need lots of time, energy, resources, and clout. I was like, no, not necessarily. Like, I'm with you, Erika, right? 

But this one, I was like, "Wait, what? You said you're believing it's going to be a lot of effort." And I was like, "Oh, I am actually kind of believing that." So, talk to me about this, Erika. Like, how is it not true that changemaking is a lot of effort? 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. So, I think this is another one of those that is rooted in, you know, the waters of capitalism that we swim in, right, that like anything that's hard work or doing more equals better. But I think it's really important to realize, actually, going back to the fighting the dragons or pouring over all the books in the library for important information, is that the way that each of us is meant to create change in the world is going to feel like a path of least resistance for ourselves. Now, that doesn't mean there will never be challenges or setbacks or time where we might have to put in a little bit more focus. 

I talk a lot in the book about asking for help, and resourcing yourself, and that we're not meant to do it alone. But it really is, it's the thing that you are innately going to be able to do, right, or want to do, or feel really passionate about, and that is how we get that balance. So, I use this analogy because I'm a huge, huge, huge Tolkien fan, big into Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. So, the book starts and ends with this idea of like The Fellowship of the Ring. 

For anyone who is not a big nerd like me in the realm of Middle Earth, the fellowship was a group of different folks that came together to help bring this ring back to the fires of Mount Doom to be destroyed, to save all of Middle Earth. And the fellowship is made up of all of these different types of characters, right? So, there is sort of the classic handsome man with the sword who's, you know, very valiant. But then there's also an elf, and there's a dwarf, and there's hobbits, right? And the hobbits are the meekest of basically all of the creatures in this realm of middle Earth. And, ultimately, the hobbits are the ones that save the day, but they can only do it because they have the fellowship. 

So, it's really like turning the hero's journey on its head a bit in that it's actually the least likely characters are the ones that end up doing the most good. And individually, like, the traits and the characteristics that they bring forth are all important. So, the ones who are really good fighters are needed because they have to vanquish all of the enemies that are trying to get in the way so that the small hobbits can sneak through and get to where they need to go, right? You need all of it. You also need Gandalf the Wise Wizard, right? 

He's, yes, he can do some fighting. But he is mostly bringing wisdom and experience and magic to the mix, right? I'll even go it one deeper. So, in The Hobbit, which is the precursor to Lord of the Rings, Gandalf asked Bilbo to go be a burglar. He wants him to sneak in and steal the Arkenstone back from under the dragon. He doesn't ask him for any other reason in that he is small and sneaky, and can get in and out of there without being detected. Like, that is his power, and we don't often think of that as like a power. 

But his natural characteristics make him a good fit for that role. But I think, instead, going back to what we were talking about earlier, of looking at the Oprahs, the Melinda Gates, the Beyoncés, you know, fill in the blank, whoever we look up to, we assume we have to be just like that. They are already doing big things in the world, therefore, it must, you know, the only way to do big things is to be—I don't know—like AOC, right? Got to be AOC or else I'm not going to make a difference in politics. No, AOC makes a difference in politics because she's being the most AOC she can be.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. Well, and also because she's got fellowships, right? [laugh] 

Erika Tebbens: Right, totally. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: And I think that's, yeah, like I love this so much, Erika. And I can see why I was raising an eyebrow because this is something that I personally am really working with right now is, like, could it really be easy? Could I really just let it be easy? Could I just really, truly do what I feel like doing, do what I love doing? This is like my lifelong journey. And, listen, I help other people do it, but I want you to know I help other people do it because I'm doing it my own damn self over here. 

It's like can I trust myself that much that I could trust that what feels good and right and easy is the most powerful thing to do? Because, you're right, the hero's journey is like, oh, there's the call and the refusal. There's all this drama in the hero's journey, and it has to be so hard. And it's like maybe the challenge is actually letting it be easy. Like, that's the challenge we're meant to step into in this moment is to like refuse the call of exceptional individualism of—

Erika Tebbens: Yes. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —of capitalism, of go big or go home. Like, that's the call we're refusing. And, really, the call we're answering is just like that little desire inside to go, "Hey, who's helping these migrants getting bused all over town? Like, how can I help them?" Like, the little call, I fucking love that. 

Erika Tebbens: Thank you. And I know I went off on like a super nerdy tangent, but I will say too that, like, I too struggle with this. Like [laugh], in the exact same way you said, I help people with this because I'm working on it myself. Like, I wrote this book in part because I need these reminders for myself because it is difficult because if, from the time you are born into this world, you swim in the soup of go bigger, go home, of it has to be hard, of you can't trust who you are, you've got to become different, better, you know, fill in the blank adjective, right? 

Like, that is what we are sold. It's what we're sold with products and messaging and everything. It's that we are fundamentally flawed, and we have to work really hard to be better and be worthy and all of that. And, so, it is understandable that it would feel very uncomfortable to actually sit with like, no, what if I can trust myself? What if I do have everything I need? What if it is supposed to be simple, and I don't have to effort every step of the way, right? 

Natalie Miller: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Can I just tell you the scariest place I see this right now? Because I have—we have kids. You and I have kids. My view of high schoolers right now, on the one hand, these humans are so extraordinarily themselves. Like, they are into what they're into. The internet gives them access to all these nooks and crannies of personality and interests, and it's so beautiful. And there is a college application pressure, the likes of which I have never seen. And, so, these sweet kids have this checklist that's like leadership, sports, service, arts, test scores, AP. It's like this checklist. 

And as I'm thinking about it, I'm like, oh, my gosh. The busier you are trying to tick all the boxes on that "here's who you have to be" checklist, actually, the less interesting you become, the less time you have to explore what actually does light you up and what does matter to you. And it's just like looking at that example, and then zooming out, and going, "Hey, babe, where are you doing that? And, Natalie, where are you doing that?" What is this like invisible checklist of being, you know, like a service-minded entrepreneur that you're trying to check right now that is actually keeping you from doing what's easy and what you love and what ultimately is the most important?

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And I absolutely love that you brought that up because I talk at different points in the book about that checklist mentality, right? It's like I'm sure you work with clients every week who have checked all of the boxes, and get to a point, and they go, "I don't understand why I'm so unhappy or I'm so discontented. I have checked all the boxes. I did everything that they told me I should do in order to live a good life, and I did it, so where's the payoff, right?"

Natalie Miller: Exactly. They said when I was in the C-suite, they said when I got into leadership in this organization, I would feel empowered and impassioned and safe. And I stayed in an organization in which I never felt safe. I stayed in an organization in which I never felt empowered. I stayed in an organization that I was losing passion for day-by-day. And now I'm here in the corner office. I have the windows. I have the big heavy desk. I don't feel any of those feelings I thought I was going to feel. And it's like, well, of course not, because all along you've been following a path that had no of those berries. [laugh] 

It's like it didn't have any of those berries that you wanted. Like, you were following the path against how you wanted to feel, hoping that the reward was going to be at the end, right? Or people who are, like, they think that, "Oh, once I have this amount of money in my savings, in my retirement, in equity in my home or whatever, then I'm going to feel safe." I promise you, no, you will not. 

Erika Tebbens: It's true. 

Natalie Miller: It will never be enough, and then that's the point, right? Like, the point of capitalism is that it is never enough, ever. 

Erika Tebbens: Right, yeah. It's the goalpost is always moving forward. It's actually by design, and I talk about it in the book how it is by design that we feel powerless. It is by design that we think we cannot create change. It's by design that we think we need to be ultra-wealthy and powerful and influential in order to actually do any good. But I would say, like, any of us can think, right now in our lives, somebody we actually know who does a lot of good in a very small way, right? They're not nationally known. 

They might only be known in your town, your community, maybe even just like your neighborhood, right? But they are doing something that matters, that makes a difference, that is really powerful, that actually creates a ripple effect of other change because people see that, and they go, "Oh, that's really cool that, like, every year or so, so-and-so gets—I don't know—people together, and they go caroling." I'm thinking of somebody right now. 

Like, she was just like, "You know what, this seems like a really sweet thing to do, right? Like, nobody does this anymore. I want to organize it and, like, it's just going to be fun. We're going to get together. We're going to like wander around the village. We're going to do caroling, right?" It's so small, right? It's not solving world hunger. It's not stopping war, right? But it's for like a moment in time, it's bringing people together who want to be there to bring joy to others. 

Somebody might see that, and then they might go, "You know what, it never really occurred to me that I could just create something, right, I could just whip something up simply because I desire it without like a five-point plan, and like getting buy-in from a bunch of people. So, what's the thing I want to do? Oh, you know what, I would love to do a coat drive. OK. I'm going to make a few posts on Facebook. I'm going to ask at the local deli and the local coffee shop if I can put a box, and then I'm just going to collect coats, and then I'm going to go to the school, and I'm going to see who needs them, right?" 

Like, it can literally be that simple. Again, I have a line in the—oh, my gosh, I'm like getting all like whew, like all like misty about it. But I talk about in the book like those things, they don't change the world. But, oh, my gosh, I'm totally going to cry on your podcast, Natalie. [cry]

Natalie Miller: Yeah, I know. 

Erika Tebbens: But they change the world for the people that they change the world for. [cry]

Natalie Miller: Yeah. 

Erika Tebbens: And like, oh, god, like [cry]—

Natalie Miller: I know, babe. I mean, this is the thing though, right? They do change the world. They do. 

Erika Tebbens: Right. 

Natalie Miller: Right? And this is the thing is that the world is always changing. The world is always changing, and so what's your contribution? And we all have power to make changes. I walk down to the little free library. I walk past their most days with Kevin, my dog. And I love to put books in the little free library, and then I love to like see. I'm like, "Did anyone take it?" Right? And I'm not putting like—listen, citizens of the world, if you're putting your shitty old textbooks in little free libraries, you must stop. Put actually good books in there, please, right? OK. Sorry.

But it's like someone somewhere had this like little free library idea, and they made one. There are dozens around me, and I just look at, like, every single one of them is just like this little miracle. It's like, oh, my gosh, people give away books. We share knowledge. We share information. It's a tiny, tiny, little thing. And I have totally picked up in a little free library a book that completely changed my understanding about this or that, or connected me to a new community of people or a different way of thinking that does change the world. The world is always changing. And it could be even that easy. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And, like, you know, you, like you said, you were a young mom too and everything. And, so, there's like the part in the book where I talk about that is I talk about how one of those feelings that we might want is like going out to brunch with a friend every weekend, right, to have that connection, right, that feeling of connection, that feeling of quality time. But, you know, we might be in a season of life where it's not possible. 

And, so, I talk about, right, again, with getting creative with your changemaking, like, what if you and your friends that all have young kids and are in this difficult season, like, no, you can't go out to a child-free brunch every weekend, as lovely as that would be, and catch up and have quality time. But what if you did once a month a potluck, and the kids could run around, and you could hang out? I remember being in that moment when my kid was so young, and just being lonely, right? It's so often so lonely when, you know, if you have kids when they're young, and you're just like trying to get through the day. 

And I was, you know, thinking about that, and I'm like, you know, again, a brunch potluck, not going to change the world. But had I had that, it would've changed mine. And I think that if we undervalue these tiny things that really do actually change the world, like, they are. They are so small, but they really do make a difference, right? Somebody puts their book in a little free library, and you pick it up, and it changes how you think. And you have a coaching call later that day, and it unlocks something, and you tell your client, and then they go and do the thing. You know what I mean? Like, this is the real shit. Like, this is how change happens.

Natalie Miller: Exactly. Exactly. Can I tell you, what I kept thinking about when I was like saying, oh, once upon a time I wanted to go away for like a weekend, at the time, my then husband and I were both yoga teachers. And we had this wonderful yoga student, and she would bring us like a Trader Joe's bag with a dinner in it. 

Erika Tebbens: Nice. 

Natalie Miller: It would have like a big like container of soup, and a bag of salad, and a salad dressing, and like a little container of parmesan, and like fresh baked rolls, and it would be like a whole dinner in a bag. And, at the time, I had three kids who were like 8, 4, and 2. So busy, so tired, and if you remember, and maybe you're there right now, those small people are like ill all the time. They are petri dishes, and so it's just like [laugh] the house is always hanging by a thread. This is how it felt because I didn't have a lot of family network support at that time. Like you, I was really alone. 

And, like, that dinner, like showing up about once a month, just a bag of dinner would come home, it was so enormously impactful. It was like there is a whole evening where you don't have to think about what everyone's eating. And if that sounds small to you, then I know you've never been in charge of that task [laugh], right?

Erika Tebbens: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: It's like that was actually so enormous, I think it opened up space for me to say, OK, with that little bit of charge [laugh], I've got the energy that I need to be able to be a little bit creative about how, you know, instead of making dinner tonight, I'm on Airbnb, and I'm finding, oh, look, here's a place that's not that expensive. It's just 90 minutes away, right? And it's like you said, it's those tiny things that are actually not tiny at all. They feel enormous, and they are enormous, and they do snowball, right? 

I will tell you right now, I would not be here talking to you, having a podcast, had it not been for things like a bag of dinner showing up once a month when I really, really needed it. Like, that unlocked for me hope and faith and gratitude and time and energy, and now I'm getting teary, right? Like, it unlocked for me all of this, like, light and goodness in a moment that was quite dark, actually. And that's what we're here to do for each other. 

Erika Tebbens: Yeah. And I will note too, like, that beautiful human who did that, that's not going to put her on a 40 Under 40. That's not going to get her recognized at a gala. That's not going to get her, you know, Person of the Year Award. It will probably never be noticed outside of anyone but the recipients of her generosity, and that is OK. And you know what, for her, I'm going to guess she probably loves to cook, and it's easy. It's effortless. 

Natalie Miller: Exactly. Oh, my gosh.

Erika Tebbens: You know?

Natalie Miller: OK. Yes.

Erika Tebbens: It feels good, right?

Natalie Miller: Yes.

Erika Tebbens: Like, it feels so good. My friend Amber is the same. She loves feeding people. I love feeding people too. And you know what, it's effortless. It's nothing, right? But to somebody who hates to cook, that's not their changemaking path. That would feel effortful. 

Natalie Miller: Right, right. No, I love how it comes right back to that like, yes, she was a wonderful cook, and she loved to cook, and she loved the Trader Joe's, right? I discovered many a good Trader Joe product [laugh] through this person. Yeah, it was what she loved. It was easy, and it made an enormous difference. And then, like you said, then I go out into the world, and I make my differences. 

And whoever's listening to this, now, this is for you. Erika's book, You've Got This! A Counterintuitive Guide to Powerful, Inevitable Changemaking, this is for you. Mind Witchery podcast, this is for you. All of it is for you to go and do what you love, and make your changes. So, what do you think is like the most important? What do we want to put in the locket of this podcast? We open up the locket, and we're going to put something in there to keep. What is it for you, Erika?

Erika Tebbens: I love that question. Also, just the mental image of a locket is just so lovely. I have a line towards the end of the book that you're meant to do the kind of good that only you can do, and that can look like, air quotes, "big things," like running for office, starting a nonprofit, sitting on a board, taking your business to the multimillions in revenue, all of that. 

But it can also help you see where those smaller opportunities for change can be in your life right now, and that the kind of good that only you can do matters, and it matters so very much right now, so please do not wait. This is my urgent request for every single person to do the kind of good that only they can do, even if it feels like it's too small, because I promise you it's not. 

Natalie Miller: Yeah. And I'll just add like instead of being like, oh, this feels too small, attune to the feeling of it, right? Like, how do you imagine changemaking could feel? Like, I asked Erika earlier, like, what's the vibe that you want? Is your vibe really active? Is your vibe really cozy? Is your vibe one of community? Is your vibe one of tranquility? Like, what's the vibe? And then feel your way. Feel your way to it. What could you do today that feels like that? That's how we'll do it. 

All right, Erika Tebbens, I adore you. Thank you so much for being here. Everybody check out this book. You've Got This! A Counterintuitive Guide to Powerful, Inevitable Changemaking. You want to ride this train. You want to have this bestie cheering you on as you ride the train of this book. It's just so amazing, so.

Erika Tebbens: Thank you so much. Thank you. 

Natalie Miller: My great pleasure. All right, everyone, thanks for listening. Bye for now.

[Music]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind Witchery. To catch all the magic I’m offering, please subscribe to the show, or if you want a little bit of weekly witchiness in your inbox, sign up for my Sunday Letter at mindwitchery.com. If today’s episode made you think of a friend or loved one, your sister, your neighbor, please tell them about it. We need more magic-makers in this troubled world. 

Like all good things, this podcast is co-created by stellar people. Our music is by fabulous DJ, artist, and producer, Shammy Dee. Our gorgeous art is by the sorcerers at New Moon Creative. Mind Witchery is produced in conjunction with Particulate Media, K.O. Myers, executive producer. And I am Natalie Miller. Till next time. 

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