Conjuring Money Confidence feat. Ray Dodd

Jul 21

Written By K.O. Myers

Confidence around making (and spending!) money

is a struggle that is So Real.

The dominant system wants us scared, wants us anxious,

so we don’t have the energy to envision a different way.

Money and business coach Ray Dodd is the perfect person to help us

see beyond the internalized messages and

learn to trust ourselves with money.

I know you’re going to love Ray as much as I do,

and I can’t wait for you to share in her wisdom.

Mentioned:

Ray helps women earn life-changing amounts of money

without having to compromise who they are.

Ray’s website is https://www.raydodd.co.uk/

Her Money Makers Podcast is at https://www.raydodd.co.uk/podcast

Ray on Insta: https://www.instagram.com/ray_dodd/

Ray on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@raydoddmoneycoach

Make Magic:

The root of money confidence is self-trust.

We have to unlearn all the lessons about

how our self-worth is tied up in our ability to make money

and to spend it in a way They think is responsible.

But we also have to think clearly

about the power that comes with making more money,

and how we want to relate to and use that power

in ways that support our values.

Transcript: Conjuring Money Confidence feat. Ray Dodd

Natalie Miller: I actually think confidence is simply trust.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: I can trust myself to have money. I can trust myself to spend money. I can trust myself to invest money. I can trust myself to lose money.

Ray Dodd: Yeah, and I can trust myself to do it differently. The amount of people opting out of money-making because they see what people do, and they don't want to be a part of it, and so they just don't do it. Like, they're like, "Well, I'm not going to charge that amount. I'm not going to market myself in a way that really, you know, where I'm really owning my brilliance and all of that stuff," because they don't want to become what they've been harmed by, and what they see others being harmed by. And that makes sense on paper, except no one then recreates the thing.

Natalie Miller: Exactly.

Ray Dodd: Like, [laugh] it just keeps going and going and going.

Natalie Miller: Right.

Ray Dodd: One of the reasons that I, like, I really encourage my clients to get really clear on things. You know when someone says like, "I just want to feel successful," I'm like, "Then, well, what is success then?"

Natalie Miller: Right.

Ray Dodd: Like, let's not just say like, "Success, like, I want to be wealthy." Well, what is that? Because, otherwise, you'll never reach it. And, similarly, I think that we need to—when we look at making more money, and we start to be worried about the power that would be available to us, or the way that we've seen other people do things—we need to be very clear about, well, what will you do? What can you trust yourself to do with that power, and how will you relate to it differently?

[Music]

Natalie Miller: Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host, Natalie Miller, and I’m so glad you’re here.

Natalie Miller: Hello, my friend. I'm going to tell you right now, you probably want to save this episode for your favorites. I mean, we haven't even started recording it yet [laugh] but just go ahead—

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —and know you're going to want a heart by it or you want to file it away because I already know it's going to be complete magic. So, today's a conjuring episode, and I'm going to talk about conjuring money confidence with money and business coach, Ray Dodd. Hi, Ray.

Ray Dodd: Hello. No pressure in that intro. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: It'll be fine.

Natalie Miller: So, Ray and I know one another in many capacities, and of course we're both in this coaching place where we are helping especially women to do what they want, and in Ray's case, to make money and to feel comfortable making good money. So, Ray, when I was thinking about how I wanted to talk about the big topic of money, of course, you came immediately to mind for me, and we get to enjoy Ray's delightful accent today as well.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: I just—I'm enjoying yours because yours is as novel to me [laugh] as mine is to you. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: But does it feel posh and fancy? No.

Ray Dodd: What, does mine feel posh and fancy?

Natalie Miller: Very much so.

Ray Dodd: That's nice, because in my country, it does not. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Well, and, of course, I associate you just with like sophistication. But I think it's also that, Ray, I just—you are such a sophisticated thinker, and so maybe that's coloring my whole experience because I find that when we talk about things like the conversation we're about to begin, it goes deep, and it's very nuanced, and it's very smart.

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: So, yeah, I'm super excited. OK. So, I'm going to start with, like, the easiest question ever. You ready for this? [laugh]

Ray Dodd: Yes, already excited.

Natalie Miller: This might actually [laugh]—this—I don't even know how this is going to go. What even is money?

Ray Dodd: Oh, man.

Natalie Miller: What is money?

Ray Dodd: I often say it's a—money is a tangible thing, although increasingly not. I'm on TikTok now because, you know, I'm trying to cling onto my youth, and I'm on a part of TikTok that shows me a lot of what Americans are confused about living in the UK. [laugh] So, I get—I don’t know in the States if you're quite as anti-cash as we are increasingly in the UK. Like, we use cards for everything now. In fact, you struggle to spend actual money.

So, like, for a long time, cash was an object, right? Like, money was an object, except it's not because if you and I somehow successfully spread a rumor that the economy in a certain country is tanking, the value of that, the money in that country goes down because of how everyone—the confidence everyone has in that currency. So, I often describe money as, like, it is an object.

It's also a form of power. It's also a lot of feelings, like, and it's, I think, you can't really separate those things out, really. But to just say it's an object does a disservice to the reality of money.

Natalie Miller: Well, to say any of those one things, right, to just say it's power, well, no, it's not just power, yeah. I love this idea of money is a lot of feelings. Say more about that.

Ray Dodd: Well, one of the things that—I can't even remember when this first occurred to me. But I just remember being really struck by the fact that if it in its, say, in its purest thing, money is an object, then how can money be so exciting, so terrifying, so full of grief, so full of positivity and potential, and also so desperate and sad and lost and all—like, you can attach so many different feelings to—so full of hope. Like, there's so many feelings that come alongside money. So, a lot of it is less about money itself and more about the meaning we attach to it in any given moment.

And, very important, because you'll hear lots of coaches say—and I do agree with this—that money is energy, and there is a lot of truth in that, and power is an element of that. But we have to remember that it's also something that's used in a very powerful way to keep people in, like, oppressed, essentially—not even essentially; just oppressed, and in certain situations. And, so, yeah, it's a complex beast but the feelings we bring to it are a lot of—not completely—but a lot of where that power comes in.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. I mean, in the end, what I'm hearing also is that money is symbolic. It's representative. It represents things, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: And, so, it occurs to me also that the feelings we have about money don't even necessarily correlate to the amount of money. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: No.

Natalie Miller: No.

Ray Dodd: No, and they don't—they're not logical. Like, you would think, for example, like, let's use inheritance. Inheritance is a very loaded way to receive money. And I had a lump sum of inheritance when I was 20, and you would think, like, that shows you how complicated money can be because, amazing, I've got like a lump of money. Mine was 10 grand. I've got 10 grand. I wouldn't have that money if someone hadn't died. I wouldn't.

Like, what, do I want that money because of everything it represents? I'm also very sad, so I'm going to start spending that money. But then I feel bad about myself that I did all of that because I shouldn't spend money. I should be sensible with it. But, equally, I'm grieving. Of course, I'm spending that money, and I don't really want that money around me anyway because, you know, like, there's so much in it. And, like, if you look on paper, it's £10,000, as mine was. That's all it is but it's not.

Natalie Miller: But it's not.

Ray Dodd: It's absolutely not.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. And it occurs to me also, you know, I talk a lot on Mind Witchery about how everything is co-created. And what we make money mean, there are a lot of voices [laugh] that want to contribute to that conversation, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: Money is the best. It's desirable. It's wonderful. Money is sin. Money is evidence of greed and moral, like, badness, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: You know, money should be—we could finish that statement so many ways. Money should be invested. Money should be—

Ray Dodd: Saved.

Natalie Miller: —given away. Money should be saved. Money should be—right.

Ray Dodd: Yes, absolutely. And it's such a tricky thing as well because it doesn't exist outside of all of the—so, we've got all this money conditioning, but it also doesn't exist outside of all of the other conditioning.

Natalie Miller: Yes.

Ray Dodd: A lot of what I talk about in my work is how women, particularly, are conditioned to be carers and be kind to other people. And we see money as evil and, like, you know, there's like literally that phrase, "money is the root of all evil," and it's about greed, and it's the opposite of kindness. And, so, we start to get ourselves into these things of like, oh, like, to make money, to charge money is the opposite of kindness, and I have been—unknowingly—we've all been conditioned to be kind.

And I call it kindness at all costs because it is that kind of like, no matter what, I have to prove my worth by always being kind. And we don't see a world in which we make money and are kind. Give money, yes, but not make money. I can't think of an example particularly where, en masse, we see that as an example.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. And you and I talk a lot about—we're both white, by the way. Ray and I are both white women. But we do talk about how the conditioning, of course, is different depending on the culture that you're from.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: So, if you, for example, are a Central American immigrant in the United States, then your responsibility is to make as much money as possible because you need to be supporting your family here, your family back home. Like, everyone's future is actually depending on you making and giving that money. So, it's still the idea that the women are here to care but it's kind of twisted around into—and, so, therefore you have to, you know, you can never have a break. You must make more and more and more in order to be a carer, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: So, yeah, the pressures around money change and proliferate depending on what your identity is, and the cultural pressures that you face.

Ray Dodd: Yeah. There's family stuff, cultural stuff, societal stuff, and all of that, I mean, and the UK is obviously so much smaller than the States but we have—I notice it, like, somebody from the North of England is going to have a different experience. Somebody in Northern Ireland, like, will have different experiences within the UK.

Like, it's really interesting to talk to people and ask them because, like you said, I mean, (a), I'm a white woman. Also, I can't know. There's so many different ways that this cultural stuff and our own—just our own family cultures let alone those wider cultures show up in this stuff. And, so, I always ask people, like, bring that in when we're talking about this. Like, how did this show up in your family? And it's fascinating, the differences.

There's a whole thing really—I think it's in the whole of Ireland but I hear it a lot from my Northern Irish clients about having notions. So, to have notions in Ireland is, like, it's getting bigheaded, basically. It's showing off. It's like we would say—I don’t know if you say "getting too big for your boots" in the States. That's something that—

Natalie Miller: Yeah.

Ray Dodd: —comes up a lot. And I think in Australia, they call it tall poppy syndrome. But it's all a similar, like, vibe that comes out, and it's even stuff like that. Like, oh, well, what if I'm to say—and this definitely shows up for my friends who are second-generation Black women in the UK, for example, whose parents came—often came from Africa and South Asia as well, particularly here.

Like, there is a feeling of, like, "What if I out-earn my parents? They made all these sacrifices to get me here. What if I out-earn them?" And, in a way, that's what their, like, parents really want. But they have to do it in—they often have to do it in a certain way, and it brings up all of these things for people, and there's different versions of that for all sorts of people, like, for working class people.

I don’t know if class isn't quite the same in the States, I don’t think, as it is here. But, certainly for working class people, you've often got parents, like, Boomer parents, who worked their asses off in jobs they didn't like because they were trying to provide. They were trying to get their families out of certain situations. And then they've got these, like, Millennial [laugh] kids or, like, Gen Z kids or even Generation X kids going, "I don't want to do it that way, actually, and I might make more money than you. How does that feel?"

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I love your kid voice, by the way. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh] Yeah. "How you're doing with that?" [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Yeah. [laugh] I love that.

Ray Dodd: [laugh] But it, like, I think it causes for the person, for the kid—and I just mean the, like, child of that person, the son or daughter or however you identify yourself—it causes that fear of disconnection with that culture you come from, like, to do it a different way because there's so many layers of this stuff in all different areas of society that we're all unmuddling this really big mess, and [laugh] it's a lot.

Natalie Miller: It's a lot. OK. So, I think what we're saying is money is power. Money is energy. Money is laden with feelings and symbolism and cultural, like, conditioning and baggage, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: And money is a real thing, right? And that part's important to me, I think, because sometimes, I think, we can be so idealistic about money. Like, it's as if I could say, "I need eggs, so I'm going to go to the person who has chickens, and I'm going to ask them a question that helps them figure out their life and, in exchange, they will give me a basket of eggs, and I'll take"—it's like that's not how the world works. Actually, I need to get money for my questions that I ask, and then I take that money, and I go and I buy the eggs. Money is an—it's a means of exchange, also, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: So, that feels important. But all of this makes me think, really, maybe, number one, when we are trying to cultivate money confidence is to spend some time unpacking what do we believe about money? Like, what have we learned? What have we been told? What are some of the mixed messages that are really strong for us? What do you think of that, and what would you add?

Ray Dodd: The mixed messages are my favorites, in a way. Like, they're the most annoying, in some ways. But when you realize how much you've internalized misogyny, like, for example. And, like, one of the questions I often ask people is like, "What does a wealthy person look like, like, a wealthy woman look like? Or what does a wealthy non-binary or queer person look like? What does a wealthy fat woman look like?"

Like, take something from your identity that maybe you tell yourself means you're disqualified, and then just be like, can you see those people? And when it comes to, like, the intersections of being a woman, often, there's just no—they can't find any examples or, like, very few.

When it comes to a more general thing like a woman, a wider something, then they are—they're Dynasty. Everyone's answer is Dynasty. It's Joan Collins, and it's that kind of like '80s divorcée. Real Housewives, I guess, would be the more up-to-date version of that. But that's what people see as what a rich woman's like. And I don’t know about you, I don't massively identify with many of the Real Housewives. They—I'm not judging them, necessa…I might be judging some of them.

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: But I'm not judging them necessarily. [laugh] But, like, our aesthetics, our general way of being is never going to be the same. So, I think it's that feeling, and often I say that to a client or I say it in my courses, and people are like, "Oh, shit, that's horrible. That's horrible that I think I don't go, 'A wealthy woman is whoever she wants to be.'"

Like, it doesn't matter. But instead they do have this really internalized stereotypical view. Often, they're mean, greedy, all of those things that you mentioned. And I find that just so interesting that we have that tape running.

Natalie Miller: It's fascinating, yeah. Well, I mean, what I think is that if I think of that kind of idea, the kneejerk idea of a wealthy woman is indulgent, you know. And, obviously, we've been conditioned because if money is power, and we don't want women to have power or money, then let's say, here's what happens when a woman has money. She's indulgent. Right?

And the reality is, of course, she's powerful—maybe. I mean, listen, when you look at the richest women in the world, and you realize that, for the most part, they've either inherited or married into their money, right, no shade because that is the only way it's been possible [laugh] for a long, long time, yeah, but we don't correlate wealth in a woman with power. And I'm not—I don't usually ask this question, Ray. Maybe you do. What about a wealthy man? I do not associate indulgence with wealth in a man?

Ray Dodd: No.

Natalie Miller: No.

Ray Dodd: Not at all.

Natalie Miller: No.

Ray Dodd: Because it even comes down to you look at the different ways that men and women invest. Like, if a man buys flashy cars, which lose their value as soon as he gets in the car, on the main, that's not particularly judged because he's got like—Seinfeld, I think, Jerry Seinfeld has got a multistory car park of cars, like, and that's just seen as, oh, that's what a rich man does with his money.

But, often, if women have lots of handbags which hold their retail well, and do, like, you can often sell them on, like, that's like so frivolous, and look at her flighty shopping habits. And they've done studies on that, that the way that women are talked to about this stuff is completely different. So, yeah, I absolutely—I don’t think we investigate it, and I think that's a problem for two reasons.

I think it's a problem because we should [laugh] be being more critical, and looking not in a judgy way, just in a, like, just thinking it through. Like, what about, well, how is that person doing it? But also because what is a real clear danger, I think, when it comes to, like, I am—like you said—I'm all for women making as much money as feels good to them, and we have to be really careful not to recreate problematic systems of power with that money we make.

And, so, if we're not looking at how this stuff shows up in men, and the women that make it too, and not being, like, bringing that critical eye to it, and being, like, "What could I do differently? What are they not doing there?" like, and looking at how we use that power, and how we—I would say—share that power in ways that it's not being, then I think we just recreate the same systems.

So, we don't judge the men the same. They do behave, often, exactly the same way, but maybe slightly—with slightly—like I said, like, they're spending on watches and cars versus something else. But we have to be asking ourselves, like, let me look at this. Is this what I want?

Natalie Miller: Well, I love that that's where you went because the next place I was interested in in talking is about confidence. Like, if we're talking about money confidence, I actually think confidence is simply trust.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: I can trust myself to have money. I can trust myself to spend money. I can trust myself to invest money. I can trust myself to lose money.

Natalie Miller: Exactly.

Ray Dodd: Like, [laugh] it just keeps going and going and going.

Natalie Miller: Right.

Natalie Miller: Yes, absolutely. Oh, my gosh, and I'm just thinking, you know, when we limit ourselves, because money is systemic, right, we're all in a big system together. So, if I say, "Oh, I'm doing all right. I don't need a housekeeper, and I don't need nice clothes, and I don't need a handbag and, you know, I don't need all of those things. I'll just keep my prices low, for example, or I won't ask for that raise. I don't need it." OK. But you not claiming it doesn't mean it falls into the hands of the people who do need it. [laugh] It does not. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: For it to come into the hands of the people who do need it, you have to give it to them.

Ray Dodd: And you make it harder for other people who maybe don't have access. I call it emotional privilege, that thing of where some of us have access to confidence that others of us don't, just because of our upbringing. And that is, you know, everyone's privileged, everyone's not privileged in different ways, and that is a privilege that many people have and many people won't have.

You know, I think a lot about the fact that there's so many people who are like, "Well, I don't need to earn that money," and then they're contributing—like, if you look at coaching, for example, and I know that there's lots of coaches charging, like, high amounts. But there's lots of coaches not as well. There's lots and lots of coaches, I would say, much more than charging high amounts. There's a lot more charging really low amounts. And you contribute to this market value thing.

Natalie Miller: Exactly.

Ray Dodd: And just because you don't need it, like, you don't need that money, what if someone's a, you know, a single mom or whatever, and they don't have that partner that's, like, able to support you? And you don't need to feel shame about having that partner. That's fine. It just is. But, equally, it's not just about you.

Natalie Miller: Yes.

Ray Dodd: It's not just about what you need and what you don't need. It's about a real valuing of what people do. And, often, it's women doing things that have been seen more as kind of caring work. And, equally, I work—so, I don't just work with coaches at all. I work with product-based businesses, service-based businesses.

And I work with quite a lot of artists and makers, and particularly in the crafting world, which has been really not seen as valuable as art, like paintings and stuff like that. So, you've got all these people that make cushions, for example, and they're amazing, and they charge £20, £12, dollars. Like, they—and then they're like, "Yeah, but that's the market value," because everyone's undervaluing it. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Yes, exactly. That's why, for so many people, coaching is a side hustle because they can't support themselves doing it, and part of the reason they can't support themselves doing it is that, culturally, we don't value that work. Right?

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: This is so huge. And, you know, this also makes me think about—so, for example, and I will just be very upfront with you and with our lovely listener. I have done so much work around this my own self about being afraid of having money, and who that might make me. Like, who might I become if I have money?

But what I've discovered as I have been able to expand my earnings, and to increase my earnings, is that I'm willing to make investments in other people all the time. And I see myself not as less connected, like, oh, if I'm wealthy, I'm just going to be living in my gated house, my mansion or whatever. It's like, no, I actually become more connected because I employ more people because more people—and I want to be careful here to say, like, again, you can do whatever you want with your money. That's an important feminist premise, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: If you want to have a car garage full of handbags—

Ray Dodd: Yeah. Yes, I do. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —OK, you can do that. Yeah. [laugh] Yes.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: But if you are a person who is worried, like, "Oh, when I have more money, I'm going to be disconnected," it's like, actually, when Natalie, when I have more money, I get to connect more deeply and more fully, so that when a woman who's running for office in the United States says, "I need some funds," I can send funds, so that when abortion is outlawed [laugh], basically, I can send money to abortion funds. And how do I do that? It's like I take my little toehold of power, and I make it bigger; my little toehold into making money, and I make it bigger. And, so, then, like, there's more room for other people to stand there too. Right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah. And we talked about earlier how a lot of this thing is, like, just not being able to see other people that do it. Like, that's such a big part of it. You just—we're just not seeing people doing this stuff, and so we don't expect it. There's been a real shift. I don’t know if you've noticed this as well.

Certainly, over here, there's been a real shift since the pandemic of people really pulling back on their money goals, and saying, "Well, I just want a simpler life. I don't want to go for that." And I'm all for that if you're going for—if you're actually being like, "You know what? I've bought into someone else's version of success, and I'm reassessing, and I want this to look like my version."

My concern is that we are living in very risky times, and because of that, naturally, we become more risk-averse because we're like, "Oh, everything already feels so unsafe, you know. I don't want to push myself too far in that." And, so, what we're doing is, actually, settling for things because they're the safety we're used to rather than they're the safety we want.

And, so, we're allowing ourselves to go for these smaller amounts that maybe they don't match who we are. They don't allow us to do what you're saying. And my concern is that it'll be all the women [laugh], once again, lowering what they were aiming because, you know what I've realized, I can't do it after all. And, let's be clear, it is hard. It is. With, like, dismantling old systems, it is hard.

Making money itself doesn't have to be like the hardest thing you've ever done, and I know it can often feel like that. But there are ways to, like, change your feelings and your thoughts about that, and obviously, of course, action that goes alongside that.

But I think the hardest part is dismantling the internalized stuff about who you will and won't be, like you said, and what you can and can't do, and what you have permission for and what you don't have permission for, and who you're supposed to show up, like, the sort of person you're meant to be in order to make money. I think that is far more complicated than the actual process of making money.

Natalie Miller: I so agree. Let's—can we talk about this interesting phenomenon? I wonder what your take is on it. I have noticed that sometimes as people make more money, they feel less safe.

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: And sometimes—or I'll say for my own self, what really got my coaching business off the ground, Ray, was leaving my husband.

Ray Dodd: Oh, god, yeah.

Natalie Miller: I left my husband. I had now an apartment to pay the rent for, and a divorce lawyer to hire. [laugh] I did not have any money, and I was able, in that moment, to say, "OK, I need more power. I need more resources. I'm now willing to go for it"—almost because I had no choice, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: So, it's this weird thing that when you have lots of money, you think, "Oh, then I'm going to have lots of power and lots of choices." I find that that's the place where it gets really scary. And when you don't have any money, it's not necessarily as scary. Now, of course, it depends on the person. But it's more like motivating. So, I'm just curious how you see that.

Ray Dodd: I'm like steadying myself because I've got so much to say.

Natalie Miller: Yes. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh] So, there's a few things. I actually saw a well-known coach the other day posting, and they were, kind of, they were acknowledging all the privileges they have in their business that's allowed them to grow it to a seven-figure, I think, multi-seven-figure level. And one of the things they said was that they had a partner who could support them in the years that they were building it. And that can work. And I've seen the exact opposite be true, just like you're saying.

When I started my business, having tried to start so many businesses in the past, I did it because we had no money. We just had—we literally—I went in to speak to my husband. He'd started a business. It wasn't making money. I thought we had savings. We didn't. He hadn't told me.

And I went in, and he basically said, "Ray, we need to sell some stuff on eBay." And I was like, that is, I mean, that man has never suggested he was going to do something like that. I was like, "What? Why?" And he went, "Oh, I just think we need some money." I was like, "Why? How much money have we got?" And he was like, "Um, we've got £7.50." And I was like, "We've got what now?"

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: So [laugh], and I actually just did a podcast where I sort of tell that story. But I—it made me that, actually, I was like, "Ray, Ray, you have to stop waiting for someone to come and take care of you. Like, this is just you." I'd always been quite ambitious for him. I was like, "You know, you can do this. When are you—when do you think it's going to start making money?"

I was like, that's my ambition that I've been giving to him. I need to take action on it. So, it made me jump past so much of my own nonsense, so much of my own, like, head stuff, my own mindset stuff, and I leapt past it, and I made six figures in my first year. Now, equally, if I'd had that partner who was, like, making the money, I would've done nothing.

But I realize—and we literally—and I want to be really clear. Like, I'm not saying we were in, like, as bad a situation as some people. But I could—we couldn't afford food. I had to call up relatives, and ask them to bring food round, and I had two small children.

It was really not good. It was really panicky is when a coach said to me, not very helpfully, "You really need to, like, just step out of the need for money, Ray. Then it will come to you." I was like, "Cool, how do I step out of the need for food?"

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: "How does that happen? [laugh] Maybe you have a different relationship with food to me but it's not really"—so, what I'm saying is I think both can be true. And, actually, I have seen—and I love all my clients, I think. But I think one of the things that people struggle with the most is, actually, when they've already got that comfort.

I do see them because I think you've then got to conjure up a lot more self-worth. So, what I've discovered is, in my journey, I've then had to move out of that emergency. My fuel for making money was anxiety and fear of losing it, and so I've had to, as things have got easier, I've had to readjust that, and change my relationship with what my fuel is for my business. But I've learned so much in that process whereas if you've already got that safety net, you've got to do it because, like you say, we're feminists.

We can make as much money as we want because we believe that's fine. And that's a very different place to step out of all that conditioning from. It's not impossible. It's totally possible. But it's just different and, in my experience, stickier for a lot of people.

Natalie Miller: You know, it makes me think of so many little sayings, little chestnuts that we have, like, necessity is the mother of invention, right, that idea that, like, no, I actually—I had to do it. I got past my nonsense because I had a rent payment to make that I didn't have previously, right? Like, I needed to buy food, so it's that kind of impulse, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: The other little chestnut is freedom is just another way of saying nothing left to lose, right? It's that if I don't have any money, I'm not afraid of losing it because I don't have it to lose.

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: But once I've made some money, once I've made some money, and I've made probably some commitments that go along with money, right—so, maybe it's someone I'm employing, or maybe it's a school tuition, or maybe it's a mortgage, or maybe it's a car payment, right, whatever it might be—is that then I get into this place where I'm afraid to lose it, and I'm afraid to go for it because I'm supposed to be afraid to go for it, right?

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: The patriarchy wants me to be afraid to go for it. [laugh] And, so, I get into this place where I'm just paralyzed with fear, basically, around money. And I don't know about you but I see that a lot.

Like, I see people wanting to invest in something—maybe to go back to school or to invest in a coach or even to invest in, like, making a dream come true, like, they want to live on a houseboat or they want to live in Portugal for a year, whatever it is—and they're just stuck, too scared to do it, too scared not to do it, just kind of pausing there.

What do you think of those moments, those moments where it's like I want to make an investment in my growth and desires, but I just can't get myself to do it? What do you think is going on there?

Ray Dodd: So, just to step back a little bit from that bit, and I'll get to that bit in a sec. But I also think what goes on there is, like, sometimes, our earnings outstrip our self-concept.

Natalie Miller: Ooh.

Ray Dodd: So, like, our idea of who we are, and all of that stuff, it just races ahead. And, sometimes, our self-concept outstrips what we're earning. So, have you ever been in that situation where you're like, "I just feel like the amount of money I'm making is not matching who I believe I am and what I'm capable of," but you can't quite get it that way.

So, it can go either way. So, I think there's that kind of tussling between your present self and your past self and your—I love the thing of, like, us having so many parts.

Natalie Miller: Yes.

Ray Dodd: You know, all of that, like, it's family parts therapy is like a lot of what coaches and therapists will talk about, but also the Walt Whitman poem, which I think you used to quote when we were working together as well—

Natalie Miller: Yeah.

Ray Dodd: —the "I contain multitudes." So, we can have all these different parts of us, like, arguing, like the cultural stuff we talked about, the family stuff, the work we've done on ourselves. It's like, no, I do know this but our past—maybe this is just me—cynical self is like, "Really? You're a coach now? Who do you think you are?"

Natalie Miller: Yeah.

Ray Dodd: That kind of thing. [laugh] So, I think we have that, definitely, and then—

Natalie Miller: Oh, I want to just pause there so that everybody can really hear that, right, is that idea of there's not integrity, maybe, between my self-concept and my earnings. There's a disintegration, and then maybe it's a, "I'm not making as much money as I believe I should be making," or maybe like, "The money I'm making doesn't correlate to the contribution I'm making," right?

Ray Dodd: Sometimes, it's just an energy thing as well. It just feels not right. Like, you can't really explain it more than that. It's just like it's just incongruous, the sort of like the energy that whatever it is, the amount that matches for you.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. And just to talk for a moment about how, you know, that feeling, that wobble, or that feeling of disintegration, of course it fucks with our confidence, right, because we don't feel right. And, so, if I want to be confident and self-trusting and I'm like, "Wait a minute, I'm not even actually sure who I am because I think I should be making more but maybe I shouldn't because I'm not ready for it," right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: I guess really what it is is when we don't kind of have a lot of self-awareness around all of that, that feeling of, like, ugh, this isn't right, it can shake the confidence, when, really, what it's an invitation for is to realign, right?

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: That moment is an invitation to say, "OK, well, let's realign the outer, the money part, to the inner."

Ray Dodd: Yeah. And that's when I like to get super clear on, well, what's my worry here? Like, is it around responsibility, like you said? Is it around the idea that I can't sustain this? Like, what is my concern, and start to get really clear on defining what those things look like for you? Like, what does it look like for you to hold that? What are you going to do with that? What tools and resources do you have available to you?

And I will use a lot of, like, I talk a lot about your grounded self in my work, which is like your most adult parts of you that are like, you know, the bit that knows, that, like, inner wisdom. I'll be like, what does that part of me know to tell me right now? What tools does it know? What has it learned? What has she learned about this journey?

And, you know, I go through this too, like, obviously, incredibly matter being a money coach, constantly. But it's so useful to be able to have that conversation with the part of you that, actually, self-concept-wise, does get it, does know that you can, even if it's quite a, like, top-down discussion to begin with.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. I love that. In my work, I call it the inner council. We have the inner council and, you know, yes, there's this—I love the idea of the grounded self. That's beautiful. I may need to adopt that.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I often will think it's like the guiding self or the wisest self. But, yeah, it's that one—actually, what I find is she's the one who can hear everyone. Like, she lets everyone speak. So, she lets the scared one and the judgy one and the really, the, like, the desiring one, she lets them all speak, and she lets them come together.

In my terminology, that's like uniting the inner council. It's like, OK, can we all come together to a consensus around what is it that we really want?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: Can we talk about this desire piece for a second—

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: —because I'm just—I'm obsessing over it all the time, and I actually just asked this question in my Cauldron group, my small group. What's something you keep talking yourself out of wanting?

Ray Dodd: Are you asking me that?

Natalie Miller: Well, yeah.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I mean, and also just to say, like, you know, especially where spending money is concerned, what's something you keep wanting, and you keep not allowing yourself to want, Ray? I have mine also, but I'm curious what yours are.

Ray Dodd: Mine is the most ridiculous answer. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: Mine is a particular Nintendo Lego set.

Natalie Miller: Wow. OK.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I love it.

Ray Dodd: So, the Nintendo Entertainment System, which was, I think, the first proper Nintendo console, and they've done a Lego version of it, and it comes with a TV, like an '80s or '90s TV, and Mario jumps across the screen. It's that.

It's £200. I keep looking at it and be like, "Two hundred pounds of 200 of Lego, are you kidding me?" But I'm so—I'm a really big Nintendo nerd. I'm a nerd, generally, as came up when Natalie was on my podcast—

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: —you would've heard some of my other sides of my nerdery.

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh] Yeah, so it's that. It's that. It's not like—and, you know, there's a handbag I really like the look of, like, as well. But, yeah, no, it is—that first thing I thought of was, like, oh, it's that damn Nintendo set that I still haven't bought.

Natalie Miller: Yes, isn't that fascinating.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: Two hundred pounds. I actually sort of love that in this whole conversation, you're speaking in pounds—

Ray Dodd: Yeah. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —and I don't—you're probably more conscious of what that means in dollars. I'm really not.

Ray Dodd: It's more.

Natalie Miller: But, actually, it doesn't even fucking matter, right?

Ray Dodd: [laugh] No, no.

Natalie Miller: Because, in the end, it does not, it really doesn't matter. You now are able to buy food. I now am able to pay my rent. It really doesn't matter how much £200 is. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: But, also, I'm pretty sure that when I say £200, it feels the same to you as when you say $200.

Natalie Miller: Yeah.

Ray Dodd: I always think about that, like, it's this weird thing of, like, oh, but it's officially a bit more than that, I think you'll find. But, like, it's exactly the same thing of, like, it's all feelings and weirdness. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Yeah, I know, and it doesn't really matter.

Ray Dodd: No.

Natalie Miller: But how fascinating to talk ourselves out of it, yeah. OK. Well, do you just what to try out this whole little exercise, because I just invented it?

Ray Dodd: Yes.

Natalie Miller: So, we can do the whole thing. OK.

Ray Dodd: Yes, please.

Natalie Miller: So, the next question is, why do you want that?

Ray Dodd: So, this is actually quite a deep therapy answer because I feel it's honoring a part of myself that I've hidden for a really long time. I always joke to people—and it's not really a joke—that there is a frustrated proper toy collector in me. Like, I collec…I generally, like, I can't just have one perfume. I need a collection of them. I can't just have one dress. I need a collection. Like, it's a whole thing.

And there is a real frustrated toy collector in me that I have very much hidden because I just thought it was childish and not what grown-ups do. And as my kids have got into lots of—they're particularly into, like, Japanese cultural stuff, so they're really into Nintendo and Pokémon and anime and all of those sorts of things, I've been like, oh, I love this too.

Natalie Miller: [laugh] Oh, yes.

Ray Dodd: And, so [laugh], yeah, so it's kind of—it's because I know that it is, like, my coach-y, like, parts of me are like, it's because it's honoring my inner child. That's a lot of what it is.

Natalie Miller: Oh, my gosh.

Ray Dodd: And it's just honoring that part of myself.

Natalie Miller: I love that. Side note: I had delivered from the UK a stuffed animal I'd been thinking about for a decade. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: We will put it—listen, we're going to put all kinds of resources in the Show Notes for you all, OK? Don't even worry. The Show Notes are just going to be—it's going to have all these things that you need to see.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: I was in a toy store with my children, and this was 10 years ago, so they were what? Like, 4 and 2. And I saw this—it's called a Lanky Cat. It's a stuffed animal. It's a cat. It has a very big head and very big eyes but its body is super long, and it's like a bean bag thing, so it just kind of like lays on your shoulder, right?

Ray Dodd: Right. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: So, I wanted it but my mothering a 4-year-old and 2-year-old self was like, "I don't need that and, also, you all don't need any of this stuff. We're leaving right now." I've thought about that cat for a decade. It, like, came to mind the other day, and I thought, "I wonder if I could still find one." And I found one, eBay.

Ray Dodd: In the UK.

Natalie Miller: Someone's husband's selling it to be able to buy milk. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: Oh. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: [0:44:42] [laugh] Joking.

Ray Dodd: [laugh] Yeah, for £7.50.

Natalie Miller: Joking there, Ray. Exactly, right? So, I found it, and I had it sent to me, so. But, no, I love that. OK. So, we're going to continue, right?

Ray Dodd: OK.

Natalie Miller: So, she wants the Nintendo Lego set.

Ray Dodd: She does.

Natalie Miller: Why? Because it's honoring a hidden part of herself. It's honoring your inner child.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: OK. So, let's try this out. What kind of person wants a Nintendo Lego set?

Ray Dodd: I knew you were going to ask that, and I was like, "Ugh, an awful man." [laugh]

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: That was my first thought. It was like, oh, god, like, yeah, someone who doesn't have responsibilities like children. I do, actually, it's funny. When you said we didn't judge men in the same way. I do. I think it's frivolous.

Natalie Miller: Yeah.

Ray Dodd: Like, it's just for joy. There's no greater purpose to it.

Natalie Miller: Exactly.

Ray Dodd: At least a bag is functional. And, also, what will people think? So, there's a bit of like, I mean, they're nerdy. There's all of that stuff, yeah.

Natalie Miller: OK. What kind of person honors her inner child?

Ray Dodd: [laugh] An evolved one. [laugh] An increasingly evolved one.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. Everybody, like [laugh], listen to the shift—

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —in the tone, right?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: What kind of person wants a Nintendo Lego set? Oh. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh] An awful person.

Natalie Miller: [laugh] An awful man with no responsibility, right, who won't grow up. What kind of person honors her inner child? An evolved person.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: A courageous person.

Ray Dodd: And I always think, like, what would I want, like, my kids to do, or my friends? Like, I wouldn't be going, "Oh, my god." I'd just be like, "Oh, my god, that's amazing that you're buying a Lego set. I love it." And then I'd tell them that story I've just told you. But as my kids get older, I wouldn't want them denying those parts of themselves, at all.

Natalie Miller: I love that. That's actually the spell for self-kindness right there. What would I say to a friend? What would I say to a friend? You know, I say this to myself, yeah. So, but, I love that, actually, that idea because, for me, this part of money confidence, right?

When I'm only thinking about it in terms of the external and, like, what the external bit looks like, I'm buying a stuffed cat that they're sending across the ocean to me. How ridiculous is that?

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: But when I look at it from the internal place of, like, I'm actually making good on a desire I had a decade ago, I'm finally fulfilling that desire, that just feels so different.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: And I think that, you know, when we talk about money confidence, and you gave us that gorgeous thing to remember, right, it's like when the inside, when it's just not feeling right, when things just aren't feeling right—or, in this case, when we have a desire, "I want to use my money in this way"—to kind of allow ourselves to see that it's not just about the houseboat. It's about what the houseboat means.

Ray Dodd: Yeah. I actually just taught on this in my Plenty course—no, not in Plenty. In Money Mastery, like, my mastermind type course, we looked at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and how self-actualization is the realization or fulfillment of one's talents and potentialities considered as a drive or need present in everyone.

So, there was this feeling of, like, it's honoring your needs, is one of the definitions I took of it. And Maslow has that at the top but, as many people will know, he stole that [laugh], a lot of that principle from the Blackfoot Nation, and they have at the bottom self-actualization. So, they put—and then community actualization is middle, and then cultural perpetuity, I think, is at the top.

Natalie Miller: Ooh.

Ray Dodd: And, so, they have self-actualization, so acknowledging and acting on those desires is what leads to community actualization, which I would say then—and it's worth, like, if you've never heard of this, just quickly google it. You'll see loads of them.

But, basically, at the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy, he has things like physiological needs, health and safety needs, all of that stuff. But that would be looked after by that community actualization. They put desires at the foundation of the whole triangle, and I found that so interesting because I think we diminish our desires—and, again, this is conditioning—as being frivolous things; being frivolous or being wrong.

Like, money desires, sexual desires, wrong—or they're just flighty nonsense. Like, I could say that about the Lego. But, actually, there's so much in acting on your desires that actually support, like, we often deny our desires in the name of looking after everybody else.

Natalie Miller: Right.

Ray Dodd: But I love this idea that by fulfilling our needs, by acknowledging and acting on our desires, we're more likely—like, and this is basically what we've talked about today—you're more likely to create a world in which that community—and not just like you're doing the bare minimum for your community. It's community actualization, which is huge.

Natalie Miller: Huge. This feels like a very tip-of-the-iceberg conversation, actually, this idea of conjuring money confidence, and so I want to try to wrap up nicely—

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: —like, where we've been, so you can help me remember, Ray. And then you'll have to come back, and we'll have to talk about this more.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Also, we'll put a link to your podcast episode that I was on, so if people love listening to us talk [laugh]—

Ray Dodd: I mean, why wouldn't they? [laugh] We do. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: Yeah. [laugh] OK. So, number one, money is power. Money is what we make it mean. Money's got emotional aspects and cultural aspects and physical aspects, also. I heard that. And then, number two, confidence is really just trust.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: I go with fide, right? I go with trust, I go, and with, like, allegiance, with allegiance to myself too.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. And unpacking all of those messages, and listening to all of those voices that talk to us about the Lego set, the handbag, the coaching investment, the savings account or lack thereof, right, all of those, unpacking all of those voices is almost—I'm even just picturing it, Ray, as like I need to kind of like [laugh] move them off to the side, make spaces for them, so I can find what even is underneath? What do I want to believe about money?

Ray Dodd: That is a huge thing of it. And I do this thing called the [0:51:33 Money Festo?] where people, like, unpack a bit of, like, well, what does success mean to you? Who will you be when you have money? What can you trust about yourself, and all of that sort of stuff? Because it does take us—often our gut reaction, like I said, is just to opt out because it is layered and complicated. It is.

And, so, it's that feeling of, like, well, I'm just not going to. I just can't. It's not possible. And we tell ourselves, or our brain tells us these very flimsy, very black and white stories, which we'll listen to. And that's why, yeah, bringing in all the voices, like, adds color and texture to it so that we can actually get to grips with what we want, which is going to be totally different.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. And, no pressure, again, feminists believing women do what they want. But if you are a person who finds herself talking yourself out of spending money, or who finds herself feeling in that place that Ray described where, like, your compensation is not matching who you are or your compensation is beyond who you believe you might be, right, if you're in one of those places, like, we really invite you into this work, into thinking more about what you want money to mean, and what you want to make wealth, wealthiness mean, also.

Ray Dodd: And I think, also, like, allow it to be contradictory.

Natalie Miller: Yes.

Ray Dodd: Like, I absolutely want a collection of vintage Chanel bags, and I want to pay my team wildly more than market value for what they do.

Natalie Miller: Right.

Ray Dodd: Like, I want to do both of those things, and I don't believe I have to choose. I don't believe I have to choose between—and I think that's often what we're doing—believing we have to choose between living with integrity, being kind, our own safety, and making money for our own energy levels and exhaustion, all of that stuff. And you don't because, while we've talked about the fact that money is energy, power, all of those things, if we boil it down to the truth, it kind of is just an object.

Natalie Miller: Yeah, that's right.

Ray Dodd: But it doesn't mean it doesn't have very real, tangible meaning layered on top of it.

Natalie Miller: Absolutely.

Ray Dodd: So, it can be whatever we want it to be.

Natalie Miller: I keep wanting to, like, gesture towards that phrase about leaving money on the table, which is, you know, I think we take to mean, like, oh, that's when there is money available to you, and you aren't willing to or able to or focusing on getting it. And I just think, you know, this idea that money on the table is also power in the world. It just is.

And, yes, money is an object. Money's an object, and money is power in the world, and so when we leave the power in the world, again, it does not just float out and land in the famine-ridden countries. That's not how it works. [laugh] It's sucked into the vacuum. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: Yeah, exactly.

Natalie Miller: Right? It's sucked into the vacuum of the dominating systems. And if we want to disrupt them, we need that. We need that power.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: Yeah. Oh, all right, you're a genius and a delight.

Ray Dodd: [laugh]

Natalie Miller: It was so fun to talk to you, Ray. Tell all of the people where they can find you and more of you so that they can fall as madly in love with you as I have. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: [laugh] So, I've got a podcast called Money Makers, which I love, and I'm also on Instagram. I'm Ray_Dodd on there. It's really important to put the underscore because I believe there is a Republican hunter that's just Ray Dodd, so don't follow that person.

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: That's not me. [laugh]

Natalie Miller: [laugh]

Ray Dodd: They might not be Republican. I might've added that bit but I feel like there is a lot of hunting that they do. And then, also, I'm on TikTok as well. So, if you're in that space, I'm very much enjoying playing on there too.

Natalie Miller: She is honoring her inner child in many ways, Ray Dodd is. [laugh]

Ray Dodd: Yes [laugh], it's true.

Natalie Miller: I love it so much.

Ray Dodd: [laugh] Thank you.

Natalie Miller: Yes, my pleasure. Oh, my gosh, what a treat. All right, my friend, so, thank you so much for listening. Go get that money. I don’t know. I do want to tell you that. Go get that money.

Ray Dodd: Yeah.

Natalie Miller: Go get that money, or at least think about it.

Ray Dodd: [laugh] At least.

Natalie Miller: At least consider. OK. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.

[Music]

Natalie Miller: Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind Witchery. To catch all the magic I’m offering, please subscribe to the show, or if you want a little bit of weekly witchiness in your inbox, sign up for my Sunday Letter at mindwitchery.com. If today’s episode made you think of a friend or loved one, your sister, your neighbor, please tell them about it. We need more magic-makers in this troubled world.

Like all good things, this podcast is co-created by stellar people. Our music is by fabulous DJ, artist, and producer, Shammy Dee. Our gorgeous art is by the sorcerers at New Moon Creative. Mind Witchery is produced in conjunction with Particulate Media, K.O. Myers, executive producer. And I am Natalie Miller. Till next time.

End of recording

K.O. Myers

Conjuring Money Confidence feat. Ray Dodd

A Spell to Let Yourself Want What You Want

Full Moon in Capricorn: Author-ity