Conjuring Clarity Re: Continuing Ed Feat. Allyson Scammell
When you’re charting your own path as an entrepreneur,
training and certifications can be a good investment.
But that’s not true for everyone.
How do you know if should look into additional training,
or if other self-investment is a better fit?
I’m so excited to have Allyson Scammell here
to help me unpack this thorny question.
Allyson is a Master Intuitive Coach and Energy Clearing Guru
who helps soul-guided leaders and entrepreneurs
to earn more, serve more, and grow spiritually along the way.
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Mentioned:
Learn more about Allyson Scammel on her website, https://allysonscammell.com/ or on Instagram @allysonscammell
If you're interested in going deeper on a daily spiritual practice or reflection time, check out Allyson's 10 High Vibe Minutes guide: https://allysonscammell.com/highvibe/
Make Magic:
When you’re considering a training, certification,
or anything that requires an investment of your time and energy,
don’t be afraid to check in with yourself.
Do you want to do it for you, or because you feel like you have to?
How does your body feel when you imagine doing it?
And who's involved? Does that feel like a circle you want to be in?
Transcript: Conjuring Clarity Re: Continuing Ed Feat. Allyson Scammell
NATALIE MILLER: Welcome to Mind Witchery. I’m your host, NATALIE MILLER, and I’m so glad you’re here.
Hello, my love. Here we are in the heart of summer, and I wonder if you might already be thinking, oh, like in the back of your mind, the bees buzzing around in the back of your bonnet, what is next for you come fall? If you have been thinking, maybe I'll do this training, or maybe I'll do that continuing education, or maybe it's time to go ahead and get certified in whatever, if you are a little bit in that mode, then today's conversation that I have with ALLYSON SCAMMELL is for you.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL is a fellow coach for entrepreneurs. She and I met in a Master Coach training, and in this episode we talk together about our very different—between the two of us—experiences in pursuing a certification. We talk about the kinds of questions we might ask ourselves when we feel like we're ready for the next level or the next thing, but we're not quite sure what that is.
And really in the end, this is a conversation between two people who are both coaching for a living, both helping people to build soul-honoring, whole-self-honoring businesses to people who have a lot in common, and yet are pretty different. You get to hear these two people—me and Allyson—discuss the question: to certify or not to certify? I had such a great time having this conversation, and I hope you enjoy listening.
[Music]
NATALIE MILLER: Hello, Allyson.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Hi, Natalie.
NATALIE MILLER: [laughs] All right, everyone, so Allyson and I go way back.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: We do.
NATALIE MILLER: We met in Master Coach training. We are both Wayfinder certified coaches. That's Martha Beck's School of Coaching. So we did a—how long was that program?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Oh my gosh, I just remember Freya [sp] was 8 months old when it started. And I just remember, like, saying to myself, why the bleep—can we swear on this?
NATALIE MILLER: Oh yeah—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: OK. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: —definitely.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Why the F-U-C-K did I sign up for this intensive thing? Because I guess I thought it wasn't going to be that time-consuming. And then I had this newborn-ish—she wasn't a newborn; she was 8 months. But I was a new mom, and I was like—I had a transition to motherhood. All the things that were just like, oh, it'll just come to you naturally, I guess I skipped that. It didn't come naturally for me at first, so.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I remember that. It's funny, for me, I was so ready. I was like, yep, this is right on time. I know I want to do this. My kids were older, and I was in a point in my practice where I was like 100% this is the right step to take. So what you and I actually wanted to talk about today was this question that comes up so often for people, and it comes up for coaches, it comes up in all kinds of like industries and careers, right?
Do I get the certification or not, right? I'm interested in coaching people with ADHD. Do I need to go get special training in that. I'm a coach. Do I become a Master Coach? I'm a, you know, whatever, like a therapist. Do I go get specially certified in blah, blah, blah, right? How do you see it coming up for your folks?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: What I see a lot is people are just called to start working with clients, but they don't have the certification yet, but they struggle with that because then it's like imposter syndrome, and do I need to spend? I feel called to start working with people immediately, and I feel like I have the skillset, but do I need to invest the time and money to get the certification or do I just launch.?
NATALIE MILLER: Right. I think on my end, it's more what I kind of see is people have kind of an initial training, and then they're like, OK, in order to specialize, in order to better serve my niche, do I need more? Or they have an initial training, and they're like, OK, I have like the bachelor's degree in this. Do I need the PhD in it? Yeah?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes. I get that too. I get that question as well. I get both really. Do I get the initial bachelor's or do I go for the master's?
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah, totally. I can't help but think that, like, a primary issue here—well, there's a couple things, right? One is that we are in some ways talking about skill-building, for sure, I think. And at the same time, let's face it, there is major gatekeeping bullshit around letters behind your name, like, certifications and letters behind your name, right?
So it's kind of like on the one hand, does additional training help you to build your toolkit? Does it help you to really improve your ability to help people? And then on the other hand, there's also like, but at what point actually is collecting letters behind your name or collecting badges for your website, at what point is that actually, like, not substantive, right? So that's kind of one thing that I see. What do you see just kind of generally about this question?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah. Well, just kind of relating it to my own experience, I wonder if I didn't join Master certification for the wrong reasons. And I have a feeling there's some listeners who might relate to this. It was at a time when I was struggling to get clients. I mean, yes, I had just had Freya, but also right before I got—when I was four months' pregnant is when I decided to quit my day job, and go full-time as a coach, which maybe isn't the best time to make that leap. But I thought, well, now is when I'm going to do it.
So I was coming off of a maternity leave, and I decided to get the Master Coach certification, and I really think that I thought it would get me clients. Like, Master Coach certification will lead to an uptick in clients, and it didn't in and of itself. You know what I mean? It was like a "yes and" situation. It wasn't directly a result of Master Coach certification. I started to get more clients when I was just putting in the time, and learning how to market, and getting clear about who I was. And, yes, Master Coach certification helped me with that, but I think I got something different out of it than what I had went into it thinking.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. So, OK, I think this is so excellent as kind of a first—when I was thinking about this question and like, OK—oh, I should tell you, I should warn you, Allyson and I are never going to tell you what to do, ever. [laugh]
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: We would do that never.
NATALIE MILLER: We're like actual coaches, not—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: —consultants pretending to be coaches. Like, no, we're actual coaches. We're never going to tell you what to do. But we are going to ask you really good questions. And so, for me, one of the first questions to ask if you are considering like further training is why?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Why?
NATALIE MILLER: Why?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes.
NATALIE MILLER: Why do you want it? Like, what do you imagine is going to happen when you get that, right? So, for me, when I entered Master Coach training, Allyson, I was like, I want deeper into this organization. I want more tools. I was very clear that like, for me, it was not like, oh, this is going to help me get more clients. Like, for me, it actually was, no, this is the next step for me on my own development of my own coaching practice. So it was less about like, it's going to get me X result, and it was more this feels like the way for me to deepen my own coaching practice.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: So, Natalie, I feel like your example is what people should be. It should be the driving motivation for advanced study, and mine was not. Like, had I do it again, I would've asked myself much different questions.
NATALIE MILLER: Right, because I think, you know, what we have to do is realize that in our dominant culture, the dominant culture is always going to want you to go get more training, more letters behind your name, more certifications, right? It's going to pretend like that is always the answer. And so I don't think, like, you were dumb—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: —to think that that was going to give you success, because the dominant culture is telling us all the time, like, oh, you know what you really need? A master's degree. Oh, you know what you really need, like, this designation or whatever, right?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah, totally. So there's another thing here that is also kind of interesting to think about, which is like, what is your relationship to being a student, you know, like, to studying, to like learning things, right? So what is yours, Allyson? Like, how do you feel about being a student?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: So that's such a good question and a very important question, I believe, to ask for listeners who are considering furthering their education. I'm weird. I'm a weird student. Now that I'm really stepping into who I'm meant to be and what I'm meant to be teaching, I am a very spiritual person, and I am a channel, and a lot of stuff that I teach, I get directly from non-physical sources [laugh], so non-human sources.
And I find now that I'm really in alignment, it's very difficult for me to find a human teacher that I want to learn from. It does happen, but it's very infrequent. And when I find it, I enroll. So after Martha Beck's Master Coach certification, I didn't get any advanced study in anything else because nothing called me, other than like business and strategy, that type of coaching.
And then I stumbled upon Quantum Human Design by Karen Curry Parker, and she just spoke to me, and my whole body just said, yes, this is the human being I want to learn from. I enrolled into her certification program, thinking that I wouldn't get certified in—like, before that, I was like, oh, I'm done with certifications. Like, I got that T-shirt. So, for me, it's like when I really feel that soul connection to someone, that is when I'm going to be very, very happy to be the student learning from the person. Otherwise, I'm going to go to my intuitive channels for all learning.
NATALIE MILLER: I love that. So like the two things I would totally want to tease out there is like, number one, listen to your body. Like, if you are thinking about showing up for those sessions or you're thinking about—and the way that I do it, when I check in with my body—I don’t know about you, Allyson—I like really imagine myself.
I'm like, OK, it's a Wednesday morning. This is what it's like in my home on a Wednesday morning, and I'm going upstairs to my office, and I'm going to get in front of a Zoom. And I really put myself like in my imagination, in that situation. And I see, OK, body, what do you think of this? And if my body is like, ugh, I'm like, oh, OK. Like, what's going on here? How do you do it when you check in with your body?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: So very similar, I check for the yes energy and no energy. So yes energy's always going to have some sort of expanding, freeing. Even if it's neutral, it doesn't necessarily mean it'll be a joy state, although it could be. I think often when we really hit that full-body yes, it kind of puts us in a joy, high-vibrational state, and we're expanding out.
And then the no energy is the opposite. It's contracting. It's going inward. It's often got a heaviness to it, and it can be associated with a pain or a sadness or an overwhelm, or just like yuck, I don't want to do that.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. For me, it's like I just check with my breathing. If my breathing is full and free, it's probably a yes, and if my breathing is like, ugh, then it's probably a no.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: That is actually an intuitive—in the intuitive yes/no responses, you can go—it's an advanced technique, but you can go to your breathing, whereby you ask a question like, you know, do I love my child? Like, do I love Freya? [breath] You're going to immediately get an inhale breath. Do I love Freya? [breath] Yes. Do I love to get bitten by mosquitoes? You stop breathing for noes. Your body does an automatic inhale for yesses.
NATALIE MILLER: That is some witchery right there.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Right, that is witchery.
NATALIE MILLER: That's witchery.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: And so, listeners, if you don't get that right away, it's OK. It takes a little bit, but practice that, and you will start to notice that it's an involuntary, automatic, deep inhale on a yes, and stopped breathing on a no.
NATALIE MILLER: Oh, I love it.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Isn't that cool?
NATALIE MILLER: It's so good, yes, I love it. That's fab. I'm hanging that in my toolshed right now.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Do it, do it, do it.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. [laugh] OK. So the other thing that I was thinking is, like, you're saying, I want to check in with my body, and I also want to be like, do I really resonate with this human, right? And I remember, oh my gosh, Allyson, let me tell you, because I love to be a student, like, I fucking love it. I've loved it since kindergarten.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: I like school supplies, and I love learning new things. And I think after Master Coach training, I immediately went and got certified in this like empowerment dynamic thing, right, because I just love to be a student. I have to be careful to choose the kind of, you know, the good things for me to enroll into. But for me, it's almost always motivating.
And I will say that thing about the humans associated is that when I was in graduate school—so I was getting, once upon a time, I was getting a PhD in English because I love being a student, and so I was like, I'll just be an academic student, #student forever, right? But actually that's not actually what it is. I didn't know that.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: But I was like, "Wait, we're not just like loving books forever?"
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: They're like, "No, we're being really mean to each other." I was like, "What? We're not like learning how to teach?" They're like, "No, we don't care about teaching." [laugh]
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Oh my gosh.
NATALIE MILLER: Anyway, but I remember, I can see the day so clearly, walking past my advisor's office, and peeking in, and I saw her. Like, the office was dark. There was a light on her desk. There were stacks of books and papers, and she was hunched in this tiny little form. She was like hunched over whatever it was she was, like, correcting. She was correcting a paper on her desk. And I was like, I don't want that. I don't ever want that scene to have me in it.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah.
NATALIE MILLER: You know?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: That's a no posture, hunched over your desk like that, like inward, that's no energy right there.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: She might be living the best life of her lifetimes but—
NATALIE MILLER: Totally, totally.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: —typically, that's a no energy.
NATALIE MILLER: Actually, she made herself at home in that no energy. I remember once telling her, I was like, "Writing is so hard." And she was like, "Yes, it's pain. Writing is pain." And I was like, "OK"—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: —"I'll just get better at pain." [laugh]
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: You know? So but I think that is a thing, right? Like, when you're thinking about, OK, so number one, why, why do I want to do this? And then number two, how do I feel in my body when I imagine doing it? And then number three, who's involved, and like does this feel like, yeah, I want to be in these circles?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah, that's so good, absolutely. So I went through those questions you just asked about the Quantum Human Design certification I'm taking, and it's just like this magical community formed. And I think that it's because, you know, I've joined for the right reasons, and I followed my intuition and my body. And now, all of a sudden, this like really cool human design circle of advanced, you know, practitioners is forming, and it just came out of nowhere, just like this human design community, and I didn't even expect that.
NATALIE MILLER: Yes. I love it so much. As you were saying that, I was thinking like, yes, I have totally also met like soulmate people, or communed with soulmate people in those kinds of places. And I think of course, right, when we're attracted to the same vibration, when we're attracted to the same material, it's like, yeah, you're going to meet new people. And that's actually—that would be a great why. Like, I want to be with more people who are interested in this thing. That's like a totally legit why, I think, for joining a program.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: One hundred per cent. I think, like, networking, getting to know people, and, yes, for the friendship of it, certainly, and also for the like, hey, I'm trying to grow a business here, and you have connections and I have connections. Let's support each other.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah, totally with you on that. And I will say, as you were talking, I was like, here are we, right? Like, we met in a training that was like a definite yes for me, and was a, hmm, OK, probably for you or—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah, yeah.
NATALIE MILLER: —I don't know, right? There's something in that for me that also says, we can't get this wrong. Sometimes when you're in a thing, you've got to be like, all right, why did I come here? So basically, like, if you are already in the thing, and you're like, yeah, I think I got in here for the wrong reasons, it's like, OK, yeah, maybe, but there's still something for you here, right? And this, P.S., could be a certification.
This could be a group program, a coaching program. This could be like any number of gathering things, right? It could be a neighborhood that you moved to that you're like, ugh, this is not for me. There's something here for you. Go on the treasure hunt, and figure out like what was the connection? What was the resource? What was the—like, something was here for you.
And I think that's really important because if we get into a place where we're like, oh, that was a huge mistake, that's not the most kind, generous, and frankly effective way to think about choices we made that maybe were not made as consciously as we would've liked.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: One hundred per cent, one thousand per cent. This is what I tell my clients when they come to me. I just was with a client before the session, and she said, "I invested all this money in a relationship coach, and it was a big bust. And I wish I wouldn't have done it, and I wish I would've invested it in you, Allyson." And I said, "Well, I do too, of course, because I love working with you."
And what I'm going to invite in for you—which I invite into anyone who ever says this: "I invested in this, and I don't know, or it was mistake"—you made the decision. The money's been paid. Now, let's get our mindset and our energy behind it. You can say, well, it wasn't what was expected, and I'm not going to do it again, and I'm going to get the biggest return on that investment that I can possibly get.
Sometimes going down the path that you know is not desirable is the most clarifying thing you can do. So at least you're getting clarity, and just turn that doubt and frustration into I am going to get an amazing return on my investment here. You already made the decision, so just put your energy behind it. Put your thoughts behind it.
I don't know what the ROI is going to be, but I am willing to receive it when the time is right. Maybe it's in a year. Maybe it's in two years. You know, maybe we don't get the ROI right away. But I'm so ready to get a return on this time and money that I invested." So that's the first thing I'll say on that.
NATALIE MILLER: I love it so much. And I think that, like, the way that I'm talking about affirmations in my world, Allyson, is that they're spells. ,Like there are like little spells that we can cast on our minds and on our lives. And so I will say things like, even my mistakes yield abundance. They just do.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: They do.
NATALIE MILLER: OK. I married probably the wrong guy, and it yielded abundance.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes.
NATALIE MILLER: Right? I went to the wrong graduate school. It yielded abundance, right? And so, for me, that is just a very effective way to kind of be in the world.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: I love that spell. And on that spell note, the second point I was going to make about the other question was I probably joined Master Coach certifications for the wrong reasons, and that's OK. And I made it into something amazing, and I was open to receiving the abundance that was there for me. And when I look back—you'll remember this, Natalie—the horses. We got together for the retreat, the in-person retreat at Martha Beck's ranch, and we did the equus training.
NATALIE MILLER: Right, like which—like full pause—we're one of the last groups that got to do that.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: I know.
NATALIE MILLER: We actually might be the last group that got to go to Martha's ranch, and spend days, and, yeah, we had a day with horses, and it was life-changing.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Oh yeah, I mean, I've heard about some of the changes they made in the program, and all I could say was, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I did it [laugh] when I did.
NATALIE MILLER: Yes.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: So, from that perspective, I made the right choice, right? So it's always the right choice. It's always the right choice. So we did the equus training.
NATALIE MILLER: And, I mean, we had a whole faculty. One of the instructors led like a guided visualization. It has changed my own practice. Now I incorporate so much guided visualization into my coaching practice, because that actually gave me a witch vision, which was like—I didn't know this—but planted the seed for Mind Witchery, for sure.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: I mean, it's really unbelievable when you—so now I'm all like excited I did it when I did it. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: Yes. Yeah. So neither of us, when we were evaluating that training or signing up for it, neither of us knew that that was going to happen.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: No. I thought I would get more clients. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. And I was like, I don't know, I like this place. I would just like more of it. And I like being a student, right?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: But I think actually part of the way we got it, Allyson, is that when we were in, we were all in. Like, you had a baby, and you were still like, "I'm coming."
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: I'm coming, man.
NATALIE MILLER: And not just coming but coming from Europe. [laugh]
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes, I came from Brussels, right?
NATALIE MILLER: Yes.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: I was living in Brussels at the time, yeah.
NATALIE MILLER: And then—I don't know—do you remember, like, I had had like surgery a couple days before, and I had this—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Oh yes.
NATALIE MILLER: —weird like—oh my gosh, y'all, I'm not even going to share all the details. But, anyway, let's just say I lost a lot of blood [laugh] the day I got to California. So I was in the emergency room. I lost a lot of blood. Obviously I was fine. But I was like—they were like, "It's totally OK if you're not coming." I was like, "Are you kidding? I'm going to be there." And so I was, you know, pale and wan and [laugh] all the things, but like I was there.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah, it was the first time I had left Freya. She at that point was like 14 months. She was at 14 months at that point, and it was the first time I'd left her for more than like four hours. And, oh my gosh, Natalie, the day I left, I was sobbing. First of all, she was at my parents' house. She had like 20 people looking after her. She was more than fine. But I was just like, "I'm a bad mom." I was raking myself over the coals. And then I was like, "Well, I've got to go." I loved that it was mandatory. This retreat was mandatory. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone.
NATALIE MILLER: Really?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: No. There was just too much mom guilt. But then the second I got on the plane, I had virtually zero mom guilt for the entire time I was gone. It was crazy. Like, it somehow turned off. And I wasn't suppressing it. I was emoting, emoting, emoting. And then I got to the airport, and I got in the plane. I'm like, OK, I'm fine now.
NATALIE MILLER: My girls are now like teenagers, and I still get mom guilt when I travel. But I know reliably as soon as I'm through TSA, as soon as I'm through security, it's gone. Now I'm like choosing my snacks—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: —and making sure I have reading materials. Like, I'm like now fine. [laugh] So—
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Oh my gosh.
NATALIE MILLER: —that's definitely a thing. [laugh]
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah, it's definitely a thing, because like COVID, you know, whatever, we weren't traveling, so I've only left Freya a couple times since then. But I just left her again in November to do a retreat with Susan Hyatt, who is also from the Martha Beck world. And I felt mom guilt, mom guilt, mom guilt, until I got to the airport, and there was no more mom guilt. It was gone.
NATALIE MILLER: Yes. So but underneath this, I think, is something really important to think about when we are wondering if we need to pursue certifications or whatever, right, is that like this is an investment in you. And on the one side, there's like a pressure to accumulate the letters behind the name. And on the other side, there is, I think, this very subtle, like, do you really need that? Or maybe not so subtle, right? Like, hmm, that's a lot of money. And this could be again for a training, for a certification, or it even could be for a retreat, for coaching, for something that you're like, ooh, this is a yes for me, or I do want to be with those kinds of people, or whatever it is, right?
Like, thinking about it as I am making an investment into myself, so is this how I want to invest? Like, in the portfolio of my like psyche [laugh], is this how I want to diversify? I want more of this thing. I want more of this organization. I want more of this skillset. I want more of this community. And it is most certainly an investment in you, which when you're a mother, of course, what are you supposed to be investing in? Only the kid, according to the culture, right?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah, I love that, totally. I think when you think of it and look at it that way, you really tap into doing it for the right reasons—
NATALIE MILLER: I think so too.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: —and not the wrong reasons. And I do not think any—in how many years have we been coaching now, the seven, eight years of coaching, I've never ever had a potential client or a current client ask me about my certifications—
NATALIE MILLER: Correct.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: —never. I've never had it. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: No.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: So in terms of like getting this degree, this certification, this training is going to build my business, and get me more clients, as someone from experience, that is just not the most highest vibrational way [laugh] to look at it. Like you just said, how do I want to invest in myself?
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: And if furthering my education is how I want to invest myself and my business, so you can, you know, you can look at it as the business too, and then, you know, exactly what you're saying, like, looking around at the people, you know, I think a great thing to do is look at other grads from a program who have gone on to some success. Like, do you want to be walking in similar footsteps to them?
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. And, you know, feeling through all the vibes, right, so like attend the info session but not for the info; attend it for the vibe, to sort of see like who else is here? What are the kinds of questions people are asking? When the answers come through, how does it feel? Like, all of those kinds of things, I think are really important. And, you know, maybe even in the end, something to say is that there are so many ways you can invest in yourself.
There are so many ways you can invest in yourself. And certainly like what I've discovered is that I am my very best investment, better than a mutual fund, better than a house, better than gold-plated diamonds or whatever—I don't know—whatever people invest in, right? Like me, when I invest in me, that is an excellent investment. I always get the highest returns when I invest in me. I'm betting you feel the same, Allyson.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Oh, 100%. And I'm like such a believer in coaching. Like, I don't necessarily always sign up for certification programs, but I almost always have a one-on-one coach, or I'm part of like a small group coaching program. I believe full-heartedly in coaching, and I would not have the success I have today without coaching, for sure. So I'm a big believer in it.
And as part of investing in yourself, sometimes it's actually not coaching, and it's not a certification program; it's hiring a VA to help you. And I think that is part of investing in yourself too. So just thinking about like, I'm feeling called to invest in myself, my business. Is it that I just need to invest in support?
NATALIE MILLER: Right, right. Yeah. Like, and maybe even the question is like, where do I begin, right? Like, where do I begin, or maybe even like what am I hungry for, right? Because it may be also that really what you need is a massage twice a month, and a personal trainer so you actually are working out.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes.
NATALIE MILLER: Maybe you need a housekeeper, and someone to pick up your kids from school. Like, I don't know what it is that you need, but thinking about what you're really hungry for and like, OK, that's going to be the first investment, and then I can diversify my investment portfolio, right? I can add more investments on top of that. Yeah, I think that's so good.
And I'm with you. When I don't—when I have a break between one-on-one coaches, or me not being in a group program, I feel it intensely. Now, of course, you and I, we're both coaches, so we love coaching, and it really works for us. And, you know, I don't know that it works for everybody.
But, yeah, I was thinking though, as you were talking [laugh], I was like, can you imagine if instead of seeing people's letters behind their names, can you imagine if it said things like "nine months of therapy" or "nine years of therapy and counting", right, or like if we could see kind of some of those other investments, I would be like, oh, I definitely want to hire that lawyer, not because of all of the letters behind the name but because like, clearly, they're like an introspective, self-reflective kind of person, right?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: That's like really cool branding. Like, that could be a cool way to put on your like About page—
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: —to have that, because that would definitely make me connect to someone immediately, like, oh, a like-minded soul. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: Me too, right, and to kind of see like someone who is really—as we would say in Wayfinder—living it to give it, right?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes.
NATALIE MILLER: It's like, oh my gosh, I'm not going to tell you that coaching is the answer if I don't think it's also the answer for me, you know?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Correct. And one thing I want to add on that about what you were saying about the massage—and I totally agree—sometimes you might be called to investment, and you're like, I don't know. Because like I got called to sign up for Morocco last year, and I didn't know why. And like it was a seven-day retreat to Marrakesh, and there wasn't much on the sales page, and that's me too. I barely read sales pages. I get just an energy, and it's like, yep, and I decide fast. It's like, got to do it.
NATALIE MILLER: Beautiful.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: But even so, I was reading the sales page, and I was like, I don't know what's going to happen there. And I'm typically the one that would sign up for a retreat if it's like business growth, and there's going to be breakout sessions, and you're going to sign your marketing strategy, or like it's a big spiritual thing, and you're going to be doing shamanic practice in the jungle in Costa Rica. I did that once. Like, it's either going to have a big business growth angle or a big spiritual growth angle.
But this was just like "come to Morocco," and I didn't know why. And then I got there, and I noticed that there wasn't a lot of coaching on the agenda. And I'm like, wait a minute, I want to be coached, and where are my coaching breakout sessions? But I realized that what my heart was calling me for was just a fucking awesome vacation with really cool women doing things that I would never have organized for myself.
And when you get a group of people, you can afford more, you know. Your dollar gets stretched. So we were doing hot air balloon rides. We were doing all this crazy stuff. And from the experience, I was getting book ideas, I was getting like program ideas, meeting these really real cool people. And I was like, oh my god, it was just the experience that I was hungering. I didn't need the breakout sessions. I needed the experience.
NATALIE MILLER: Oh, I love that. And I think like that brings us back again to like, you know, you want to ask yourself why you want this thing. But sometimes you might not know, but your body knows.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes.
NATALIE MILLER: I actually just signed up for a retreat. It obviously hasn't happened yet. But because I really like the woman running it, and because my body—again, I didn't really read the sales page. I didn't have to. I was just like, I like her. I like this idea. I like going there at this time of year. I'm in, right?
And already, fascinatingly, I've discovered that someone else that I've been wanting to get to know for a long time also randomly signed up for this retreat. And so we're going to get to know each other on this retreat, and, you know, we've just been wanting to for a long time. And it was just like, oh yeah, that's a yes, right?
And again, it wasn't—this is a writing retreat. I'm not particularly—like, I do want to write a book someday, but I'm not doing it right now. But I was just like, yeah, I'm going to go do this thing and, you know, I'll write something or not. I don't really care. It's just a yes.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes, I love that. It's just a yes.
NATALIE MILLER: Yeah. So where coaching can come into play—last little bit for you all, right—is that if it's hard to hear or feel a yes, and maybe even more if it's hard to honor your yesses and noes, that's where Allyson and I help. [laugh]
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes.
NATALIE MILLER: That's where we help.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: We help when there are so many other pressures, voices, responsibilities, whatever is in the way that we can't even hear that intuitive or embodied voice, or that we can totally hear it—in fact, it may be even screaming at us—and we can't figure out how to honor it.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Because that's usually, for most people, I think, we get the yes read or the no read, and sometimes we can't. But I think more often than not, you get the read, and then it's just being able to follow through on it when it feels scary, or it feels like a risk, or I don't know what the return is going to be. And so, yeah, just staying with that yes energy when it's there, and just trusting, trusting you're going to get what you are meant to get, and it likely won't be what you expected.
NATALIE MILLER: Right. See, for example, Natalie and Allyson met in a Master Coach training, and here we are many years later—like, what, seven years later. Here we are, seven years later, and we're like connecting.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yeah.
NATALIE MILLER: So, all right, Allyson, this was the best convo, the best.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: You're amazing.
NATALIE MILLER: You're amazing.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: Oh my gosh. Like, we're going to have to meet on the planet in some way, shape or form.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Yes. Well, I was just thinking, like, I'm being called to write a book this year, and I'm like, maybe I need to get the details of your writing retreats. [laugh]
NATALIE MILLER: A writing retreat, yeah. Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. All right, everyone, thank you so much for listening. Stay tuned for a little more info about how you can connect with Allyson, how you can connect with me. We're so happy to both have podcasts, and so this episode, you can find it on Allyson's podcast also. You can find it on my podcast also. And if you've enjoyed the conversation, maybe you'll find more stuff that you resonate with there. And how about you, Allyson, how can my listeners come and get some more of your magic?
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: I have my labor of love podcast, Soul Guide Radio for soul-guided leaders and entrepreneurs who are looking to grow a business but using their spiritual gifts, using something that feels authentic, and in flow, and just true to your soul mission, and helping you to get clarity on what that is to begin with. And if you're interested in going deeper on a daily spiritual practice or reflection time, you can head to my website, allysonscammel.com/highvibe and get access to 10 high vibe minutes. That's my brand new gift that I'm offering folks to give you ideas for a really spectacular daily spiritual practice.
NATALIE MILLER: Oh my gosh, so fancy. All right, my love.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: All right.
NATALIE MILLER: Thank you.
ALLYSON SCAMMELL: Thank you.
[Music]
NATALIE MILLER Thank you for listening to this episode of Mind Witchery. To catch all the magic I’m offering, please subscribe to the show, or if you want a little bit of weekly witchiness in your inbox, sign up for my Sunday Letter at mindwitchery.com. If today’s episode made you think of a friend or loved one, your sister, your neighbor, please tell them about it. We need more magic-makers in this troubled world.
Like all good things, this podcast is co-created by stellar people. Our music is by fabulous DJ, artist, and producer, Shammy Dee. Our gorgeous art is by the sorcerers at New Moon Creative. Mind Witchery is produced in conjunction with Particulate Media, K.O. Myers, executive producer. And I am NATALIE MILLER. Till next time.
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